Why can't teachers/cops live with 401(k)'s instead of pensions?

[zimmy]

well pal, I am not sure I would have a problem with 401k and social security so count me out of that discussion. I am sorry you feel so burdened. If it is so upsetting, you might look at ways to reduce your stress, like fishing Luckily for me, I am rich enough to by myself a 30' center console and a pile of offshore gear to fish for tuna, so I don't get stressed (in my dreams). Well, someday may I do feel bad that this gets so many people worked up. I have a cousin in PA who got married, moved to a new house they built in a different town, had a couple kids and all the husband does is complain about property taxes. Funny considering his family is one of the driving forces behind the need for higher property taxes. He makes a very good salary selling pharmaceuticals, which directly affects health care plan costs too. It's gotta be the shoes.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

well pal, I am not sure I would have a problem with 401k and social security so count me out of that discussion. I am sorry you feel so burdened. If it is so upsetting, you might look at ways to reduce your stress, like fishing Luckily for me, I am rich enough to by myself a 30' center console and a pile of offshore gear to fish for tuna, so I don't get stressed (in my dreams). Well, someday may I do feel bad that this gets so many people worked up. I have a cousin in PA who got married, moved to a new house they built in a different town, had a couple kids and all the husband does is complain about property taxes. Funny considering his family is one of the driving forces behind the need for higher property taxes. He makes a very good salary selling pharmaceuticals, which directly affects health care plan costs too. It's gotta be the shoes.

The "pal" reference was because I went to great lengths to answer your questions directly. You still won't even try to answe mine. That really, really bothers me.

I tried Zimmy, I gave you a direct answer to the questions you asked. Your answer to mine was "I'm sorry you're so mad".

That's what teachers always, always do. They come up with phrases that are designed to alter the discussion. Each of the last 2 contract discussions, when I brought up 401(k)s, I was accused of not caring about kids' education. Right.

If ordinary dads out there making $50k a year have to get a second job to pay their property taxes, or if ordinary dads have to sell their houses because they can't afford the property taxes, are the kids of that dad better off because their teachers still have pensions? I don't see how.

And we're all still waiting to see how giving up a raise, costs you $3k a year for perpetuity.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If ordinary dads out there making $50k a year have to get a second job to pay their property taxes, or if ordinary dads have to sell their houses because they can't afford the property taxes, are the kids of that dad better off because their teachers still have pensions? I don't see how.

There's a phrase for 'ordinary dads' like that.

Its called living beyond their means.

[scottw]

I think I get it...a teacher....I'm sorry...a "highly paid professional educator(gym teacher)" working 186 days a year(how many days do you actually work when you use up all of your sick and personal days?) should not have to get a part-time job to be able to do what they love in the form of employment in a particular town....but a town resident who probably works more than 186 days a year is living "beyond their means" if they find themselves needing a part-time job to pay the taxes to pay the highly paid professional educator working 186 days a year while enjoying health benefits not found in the private sector and a guaranteed income after retirement that is in no way based on their contibutions through their employment regardless of whether or not the money exists to pay them.......sounds to me like the teachers and others are living beyond the public's means....
did anyone see Gov Christie's stats about NJ education and compensation?
before you assume I hate teachers...I have a lifetime of experience with teachers as both of my parents were teachers, dad was a science teacher(with his masters) and my wife is currently a teacher...

she was substituting a couple of years ago and it was quite funny that the sub notification system that she was a part of would call the house to request subs...it would be somewhat quiet through the week but every Friday the phone would ring off of the hook and very often the Monday after a vacation was quite busy...

[likwid]

If you cannot afford your living expenses.
You're living beyond your means.

Stop blaming everyone else.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by likwid

If you cannot afford your living expenses.
You're living beyond your means.

Stop blaming everyone else.

that would be a great argument the next time they want to extend unemployment and borrow even more money to do so

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

If you cannot afford your living expenses.
You're living beyond your means.

Stop blaming everyone else.

Likwid, if property taxes double in 6 years because teachers refuse to accept the economic realities that face the rest of us, then that guy making $50k isn't necessarily living beyond his means. he just had no way of knowing that his teachers are completely unwilling to live on the tax revenue that he can provide.

It's the unions that won't live within the means that the public can reasonably provide.

I don't know of a business that isn't cutting exoenses. That being said, it's extremely rare for a town budget to decrease from year to year, it almost never happens.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Likwid, if property taxes double in 6 years because teachers refuse to accept the economic realities that face the rest of us, then that guy making $50k isn't necessarily living beyond his means. he just had no way of knowing that his teachers are completely unwilling to live on the tax revenue that he can provide.

It's the unions that won't live within the means that the public can reasonably provide.

I don't know of a business that isn't cutting exoenses. That being said, it's extremely rare for a town budget to decrease from year to year, it almost never happens.

Property taxes going up has been well discussed in the grumpy old farts forum, I believe you contributed to that discussion?

We'll say joe bob's property taxes were 1500, and in 6 years went up to 3000.
If he can't afford that, there's something wrong with him. Not the town.

I'm amazed at the number of people so quick to blame their financial woes on everyone but themselves.
Why hasn't joe bob looked for a better job?
Why hasn't joe bob bettered himself (whether it be via schooling or some other means) in that 6 years to either get paid more or find a better job?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

I think I get it...a teacher....I'm sorry...a "highly paid professional educator(gym teacher)" working 186 days a year(how many days do you actually work when you use up all of your sick and personal days?) should not have to get a part-time job to be able to do what they love in the form of employment in a particular town....but a town resident who probably works more than 186 days a year is living "beyond their means" if they find themselves needing a part-time job to pay the taxes to pay the highly paid professional educator working 186 days a year while enjoying health benefits not found in the private sector and a guaranteed income after retirement that is in no way based on their contibutions through their employment regardless of whether or not the money exists to pay them.......sounds to me like the teachers and others are living beyond the public's means....
did anyone see Gov Christie's stats about NJ education and compensation?
before you assume I hate teachers...I have a lifetime of experience with teachers as both of my parents were teachers, dad was a science teacher(with his masters) and my wife is currently a teacher...

she was substituting a couple of years ago and it was quite funny that the sub notification system that she was a part of would call the house to request subs...it would be somewhat quiet through the week but every Friday the phone would ring off of the hook and very often the Monday after a vacation was quite busy...

Great post, you nailed it!

When public servants (which includes everyone whose salary is funded through taxes) rank way above the median in terms of average income, with insane benefits on top of that, you have a bubble.

Here in CT, our tax rates are about the highest in the nation, and so our our incomes. That means that there is a TON of tax revenue. On top of that, teh state gets hundreds of millions from the casinos every year.

Yet with all that revebue, we are still on the verge of bankruptcy, and by far the biggest expense item is unionized benefits.

So who lived beyond their means? Those public unions are like a 25 yera old NBA star who makes $20 mill a year but goes bankrupt. The problem AIN'T a lack of revenue, it's a lack of common sense in spending habits.

You cannot look at the facts rationally, and come to a different conclusion. Only those with a political axe to grind could possibly disagree.

And I respect teachers as well. But I do not accept the premise that the financial security of teachers is more important to society, than the financial security of those who work in the private sector.