Obama the Liar at it again...

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by spence

You're comparing apples and oranges, quite simply there is indeed a serious firearm violence problem in the USA when compared to other industrialized nations.

-spence

Hey Spence
Whats the % of gun crimes committed with legal guns compared to illegal ???
According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.
Gun control is not the problem. People are the problem.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Hey Spence

According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.

I agree that is true.

So, how do we best keep the illegal guns out of criminals hands?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I agree that is true.

So, how do we best keep the illegal guns out of criminals hands?

Harsh jail time if you commit a crime with a firearm . Enforce the current law instead of plea bargaining them out .
Don't give them free to Mexican cartels where they will be used to kill hundreds including border agents
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

Harsh jail time if you commit a crime with a firearm . Enforce the current law instead of plea bargaining them out .Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

Harsh punishment for firearm crimes also prevents first offenses.
We ban plenty of things that get into the hands of criminals. illegal drugs are directly related to many gun crimes. To blame the firearm is illogical.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

Harsh punishment for firearm crimes also prevents first offenses.
We ban plenty of things that get into the hands of criminals. illegal drugs are directly related to many gun crimes. To blame the firearm is illogical.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I don't blame the guns, but the seemingly high accessibility of firearms puts them into the hands of people who shouldn't get them.

If it isn't some loophole, how do they get the guns? I don't know the answer, either....

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

As I said before, there's really no difference between a legal gun and an illegal one.

The big problem here is the NRA, not the members mind you but the leadership who work tirelessly to whip everybody into a panic by pushing conspiracy theories that enrich themselves and their benefactors.

There's a lot of rational legislation the NRA leadership opposes simply because it would slow the free flow of firearms...

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The big problem here is the NRA

-spence

If that's true (and of course it's not), once again, why doesn't the NRA's actions result in a murder spike in Wyoming, where there are so many guns?

In my opinion, the NRA does more harm than good, though their influence probably isn't as strong as it used to be.

The commonality among the places with insane murder rates isn't the influence of the NRA. It's underlying socioeconomic and cultural factors, the worst of which is a complete collapse of the nuclear family in black culture. Traditional family values are mocked, and replaced by a culture which celebrates violence and drugs and gangster rappers, and which emphasizes that nothing matters more than what feels good to the individual. What a great cultural leap forward.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

Good, fair, reasonable points.

But the scariest thing isn't the availability of guns. To me, the scary thing is how many of our citizens have it within them to do evil things to each other. If we got rid of all the guns, that doesn't address the fact that there are still a lot of would-sociopaths out there. That is the problem. The gun is the tool, and a very dangerous tool that requires regulation.

But the best solution is to get the peole in DC to be no more willing to do evil than the people of Wyoming. IMHO, the conservative agenda tries to address that, and the liberal agenda exacerbates that.

[Fly Rod]

There R laws aganist what some call a shell buyer or straw buyer such as in the case of the recent murders of the 3 jewish people in missouri...his guns were bought by a shell buyer....he will be charged onced found and arrested....also a gun dealer legally can not sell to a felon or he/she could be charged too

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

There R laws aganist what some call a shell buyer or straw buyer such as in the case of the recent murders of the 3 jewish people in missouri...his guns were bought by a shell buyer....he will be charged onced found and arrested....also a gun dealer legally can not sell to a felon or he/she could be charged too

The people he murdered were not Jewish. The whole thing is very sad.

And not because they were not, you know how the interblab can misconstrue things.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Hey Spence
Whats the % of gun crimes committed with legal guns compared to illegal ???
According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.
Gun control is not the problem. People are the problem.

You're 95% number doesn't tell us very much. So criminals usually use illegal guns...what a freaking revelation that is!

What's the difference between a legal gun and an illegal one anyway? If you have a gigantic surplus of legal guns wouldn't that make it a heck of a lot easier for criminals to get guns which would *instantly* make them illegal guns?

The number of guns in the US is mind boggling...over 270 million which is 6 times higher than any other nation and as many as the next 18 countries COMBINED.

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

You're 95% number doesn't tell us very much. So criminals usually use illegal guns...what a freaking revelation that is!

What's the difference between a legal gun and an illegal one anyway? If you have a gigantic surplus of legal guns wouldn't that make it a heck of a lot easier for criminals to get guns which would *instantly* make them illegal guns?

The number of guns in the US is mind boggling...over 270 million which is 6 times higher than any other nation and as many as the next 18 countries COMBINED.

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Fly Rod]

Spence..U can not compare Canada to the US for gun ownership, 35 million population...2 million legal guns would equal approximately 17% of the population

The US with approximately 317,000,000....55million legal gun owners would be approx. 6% of the population own guns...BUT... with 55 million gun owners U R about correct they own around 300 million guns

That is enough fire power to take on the US goverment if the need ever arose to take on the government in gorilla warfare.

[The Dad Fisherman]

That must be that Fuzzy math I've always heard about

You might want to re-check those numbers...you have them flipped.

Canada 5.7%
U.S. 17.6 %

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Spence..U can not compare Canada to the US for gun ownership, 35 million population...2 million legal guns would equal approximately 17% of the population

The US with approximately 317,000,000....55million legal gun owners would be approx. 6% of the population own guns...BUT... with 55 million gun owners U R about correct they own around 300 million guns

That is enough fire power to take on the US goverment if the need ever arose to take on the government in gorilla warfare.

[Fly Rod]

Fuzzy Math....hmmmmm.

If ya take the 35million people divide by 2million gun owners I get the 17...lol

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Correct, Liberal are also, as a group (not all of them), soft on crime. Bill Maher went on a rant just this week that our incarceration rates are way too high, given that crime rates are doing down.

Here is a liberal with a talk show, and he can't connect the dots to understand that if you lock up lots of criminal, crime rates should go down. But Maher's solution to crime, apparently, is to empty put prisons.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

It's not the guns that are repeat offenders .....WTF??
. That's pathetic Spence but typical . If you want an honest debate you have to aknowledge all possible reasons for gun violence . Abolishing the 2nd amendment won't work . Sorry to disappoint you .
And why would you think illegals are not crossing the border with weapons? Because they don't want to do something illegal ?
I don't know when the last time you bought a weapon was, but I suggest you look into it. It is a lot harder than you would like to believe.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

It's not the guns that are repeat offenders .....WTF??
. That's pathetic Spence but typical . If you want an honest debate you have to aknowledge all possible reasons for gun violence . Abolishing the 2nd amendment won't work . Sorry to disappoint you .

I never said such a thing nor have I ever called for abolishing the 2nd Amendment.

There are many reasons for gun violence. If you're so open to an honest debate and are willing to acknowledge all possible reasons for gun violence I'd think you could connect the dots between proliferation and outcome.

And why would you think illegals are not crossing the border with weapons? Because they don't want to do something illegal ?
I don't know when the last time you bought a weapon was, but I suggest you look into it. It is a lot harder than you would like to believe.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I'm sure some do but the flow of arms is generally from the US where there's plentiful supply to Mexico where there's a high demand.

-spence

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by spence

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

Do drunks drivers repeat with the the same booze or cars...lets get rid if booze, vehicles and while we are at it cell phones. Texting is the number one cause of auto accidents these days. It's not the people, it's the guns, booze, cars and cell phones that do all the killing...lets ban them all.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Piscator

Do drunks drivers repeat with the the same booze or cars...lets get rid if booze, vehicles and while we are at it cell phones. Texting is the number one cause of auto accidents these days. It's not the people, it's the guns, booze, cars and cell phones that do all the killing...lets ban them all.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Piscator, you forgot the US Census figures on knife homicides, ranging from 15.3% to 28.6% with around 20% in most states. They didn't include blunt instruments either.
Time to ban knifes, bats and fishing rods that could be made into sharp instruments too.

[Fly Rod]

not to mention breast implants...them taut nipples R causing an epidemic of blindness due to poked eyes....LOL...

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Piscator, you forgot the US Census figures on knife homicides, ranging from 15.3% to 28.6% with around 20% in most states. They didn't include blunt instruments either.
Time to ban knifes, bats and fishing rods that could be made into sharp instruments too.

According to the FBI:

Firearms: 67.8%
Knives or other cutting instruments: 13.4%
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.): 5.7%
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.): 3.9%
Other dangerous weapons: 9.2%

Mind the gap.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

Spence, I posted the data to show that here in the US, gun homicide rates are not proportional to our gun ownership - our gun murder rates are much higher than what can be explained by an increase in gun ownership. In other words, the presence of guns does not explain our gun homicide rate. The only plausible alternative explanation is the culture. Kudos to the mouthpieces on your side who have been wildly successful at de-valuing life, as well as mocking religion and family values. Also liberal heroes in Hollywood exposing our kids to vile filth. Nah, that can't have anything to do with it.

You absolutely know that you are posting things that are contradicted by the data, yet you continue to spout this because you want it to be true. Incredible.