Obama the Liar at it again...

[buckman]

I believe there is a need for this and I believe there is a reason people are against this . Spence has already come out and said lies are fine if it's for his idea of the better good . Useless laws that don't fix anything , gun control comes to mind , are ok to liberals . They thrive on feel good legislation . All it takes is one occurrence and it becomes a crisis, and a law is legislated .
Spence ,your hypocrisy has no match buddy .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I believe there is a need for this and I believe there is a reason people are against this . Spence has already come out and said lies are fine if it's for his idea of the better good . Useless laws that don't fix anything , gun control comes to mind , are ok to liberals . They thrive on feel good legislation . All it takes is one occurrence and it becomes a crisis, and a law is legislated .
Spence ,your hypocrisy has no match buddy .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

You're comparing apples and oranges, quite simply there is indeed a serious firearm violence problem in the USA when compared to other industrialized nations.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

You're comparing apples and oranges, quite simply there is indeed a serious firearm violence problem in the USA when compared to other industrialized nations.

-spence

True.

It's also true that the problem isn't even the least bit mitigated in places that have enacted tough gun laws. Chicago and DC have some of the toughest gun laws.

I'm not a huge fan of guns in the hands of large numbers of citizens. But the empirical evidence could not be more clear.

It's also worth noting that some of those countries, like Canada, have high rates of gun ownership, yet little gun crime. That suggests that the root problem isn't the presence of guns, but a cultural lack of empathy on our part. Your side is the side peddling the bile that if human like is inconvenient, it can be snuffed out. Your side is the side that says "if it feels good do it", and your side are the ones who resort to feral anarchy when they don't get exactly what they want.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

True.

It's also true that the problem isn't even the least bit mitigated in places that have enacted tough gun laws. Chicago and DC have some of the toughest gun laws.

I'm not a huge fan of guns in the hands of large numbers of citizens. But the empirical evidence could not be more clear.

Clear as mud.

Perhaps that's more indicative of the overwhelming gun culture in the US. We have by far the highest rate of gun ownership in the world and I believe the highest murder rate of any industrialized nation.

If anything your empirical observations in Chicago and DC may just demonstrate the need for tougher long-term federal laws.

It's also worth noting that some of those countries, like Canada, have high rates of gun ownership, yet little gun crime. That suggests that the root problem isn't the presence of guns, but a cultural lack of empathy on our part.

Canada's gun ownership is pretty average compared to similar countries, it's definitely not "high." Perhaps they're rates of gun crime have more to do with more restrictive ownership laws.

That suggests that the root problem isn't a cultural lack of empathy on our part, but simply way too many firearms.

Wait, I though more guns was the solution?

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Canada's gun ownership is pretty average compared to similar countries, it's definitely not "high."
-spence

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...nership/table/

From the Washington Post, gun ownership per capita for 178 countries. Canada was ranked 13th. Spence, the noted statistician, claims that being ranked in the top 8% of a list is "definitely not high."

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Clear as mud.

Perhaps that's more indicative of the overwhelming gun culture in the US. We have by far the highest rate of gun ownership in the world and I believe the highest murder rate of any industrialized nation.

If anything your empirical observations in Chicago and DC may just demonstrate the need for tougher long-term federal laws.



Canada's gun ownership is pretty average compared to similar countries, it's definitely not "high." Perhaps they're rates of gun crime have more to do with more restrictive ownership laws.

That suggests that the root problem isn't a cultural lack of empathy on our part, but simply way too many firearms.

Wait, I though more guns was the solution?

-spence

"That suggests that the root problem isn't a cultural lack of empathy on our part, but simply way too many firearms."

The Washington Post data does not support your conclusion (shocker!). Compare the US (which has the highest rate of gun ownership) and Switzerland (which is ranked 3rd). The rate of gun ownership in the US is 94% higher than that of Switzerland.

If what you say is true (that the problem is the guns and not the people), then the gun homicide rate per capita would also be 94% higher in the US than Sweden. But as with almost everything you say, the facts don't back it up. The gun homicide rate in the US (3.2 per 100k) is not 94% higher than Sweden, it is 215% higher than Sweden.

The numbers show that in this country, gun homicides do not increase in proportion with guns, compared to other countries. Other countries can have the gun ownership, without having nearly the gun murder rate that we have. That pretty much means it's not primarily the presence of guns.

I could not make up a more concrete rebuttal of your theory that it's gun ownership. I wonder if you will still spout that theory, despite now knowing that it is demonstrably false?

Guns are obviously part of the problem. But any rational person knows that even if you banned all gun sales today, that does nothing to curb violence for decades, because there are tens of millions of guns out there. The only way gun control can put a meaningful dent in crime is to confiscate the guns out there, and in addition to being unconstitutional, it's not possible.

Put down the Kool Aid and think for 5 seconds.

For whatever reason, our citizenry does not respect life to the same degree as the citizens of other developed nations. Gun control laws do not get to the root of that terrible reality.

The solution from your side seems to be to attack religion and celebrate abortions and free condoms, and to mock the exact family values that might combat whatever psychosis is effecting so many of us.

I'm not sure it helps that our POTUS has rappers, who obviously promote and celebrate the gun violence lifestyle, on speed dial.

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by spence

You're comparing apples and oranges, quite simply there is indeed a serious firearm violence problem in the USA when compared to other industrialized nations.

-spence

Hey Spence
Whats the % of gun crimes committed with legal guns compared to illegal ???
According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.
Gun control is not the problem. People are the problem.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Hey Spence

According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.

I agree that is true.

So, how do we best keep the illegal guns out of criminals hands?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I agree that is true.

So, how do we best keep the illegal guns out of criminals hands?

Harsh jail time if you commit a crime with a firearm . Enforce the current law instead of plea bargaining them out .
Don't give them free to Mexican cartels where they will be used to kill hundreds including border agents
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[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

Harsh jail time if you commit a crime with a firearm . Enforce the current law instead of plea bargaining them out .Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

Harsh punishment for firearm crimes also prevents first offenses.
We ban plenty of things that get into the hands of criminals. illegal drugs are directly related to many gun crimes. To blame the firearm is illogical.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

As I said before, there's really no difference between a legal gun and an illegal one.

The big problem here is the NRA, not the members mind you but the leadership who work tirelessly to whip everybody into a panic by pushing conspiracy theories that enrich themselves and their benefactors.

There's a lot of rational legislation the NRA leadership opposes simply because it would slow the free flow of firearms...

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

Good, fair, reasonable points.

But the scariest thing isn't the availability of guns. To me, the scary thing is how many of our citizens have it within them to do evil things to each other. If we got rid of all the guns, that doesn't address the fact that there are still a lot of would-sociopaths out there. That is the problem. The gun is the tool, and a very dangerous tool that requires regulation.

But the best solution is to get the peole in DC to be no more willing to do evil than the people of Wyoming. IMHO, the conservative agenda tries to address that, and the liberal agenda exacerbates that.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Hey Spence
Whats the % of gun crimes committed with legal guns compared to illegal ???
According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.
Gun control is not the problem. People are the problem.

You're 95% number doesn't tell us very much. So criminals usually use illegal guns...what a freaking revelation that is!

What's the difference between a legal gun and an illegal one anyway? If you have a gigantic surplus of legal guns wouldn't that make it a heck of a lot easier for criminals to get guns which would *instantly* make them illegal guns?

The number of guns in the US is mind boggling...over 270 million which is 6 times higher than any other nation and as many as the next 18 countries COMBINED.

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

You're 95% number doesn't tell us very much. So criminals usually use illegal guns...what a freaking revelation that is!

What's the difference between a legal gun and an illegal one anyway? If you have a gigantic surplus of legal guns wouldn't that make it a heck of a lot easier for criminals to get guns which would *instantly* make them illegal guns?

The number of guns in the US is mind boggling...over 270 million which is 6 times higher than any other nation and as many as the next 18 countries COMBINED.

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
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[Fly Rod]

Spence..U can not compare Canada to the US for gun ownership, 35 million population...2 million legal guns would equal approximately 17% of the population

The US with approximately 317,000,000....55million legal gun owners would be approx. 6% of the population own guns...BUT... with 55 million gun owners U R about correct they own around 300 million guns

That is enough fire power to take on the US goverment if the need ever arose to take on the government in gorilla warfare.

[The Dad Fisherman]

That must be that Fuzzy math I've always heard about

You might want to re-check those numbers...you have them flipped.

Canada 5.7%
U.S. 17.6 %

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Spence..U can not compare Canada to the US for gun ownership, 35 million population...2 million legal guns would equal approximately 17% of the population

The US with approximately 317,000,000....55million legal gun owners would be approx. 6% of the population own guns...BUT... with 55 million gun owners U R about correct they own around 300 million guns

That is enough fire power to take on the US goverment if the need ever arose to take on the government in gorilla warfare.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Correct, Liberal are also, as a group (not all of them), soft on crime. Bill Maher went on a rant just this week that our incarceration rates are way too high, given that crime rates are doing down.

Here is a liberal with a talk show, and he can't connect the dots to understand that if you lock up lots of criminal, crime rates should go down. But Maher's solution to crime, apparently, is to empty put prisons.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

It's not the guns that are repeat offenders .....WTF??
. That's pathetic Spence but typical . If you want an honest debate you have to aknowledge all possible reasons for gun violence . Abolishing the 2nd amendment won't work . Sorry to disappoint you .
And why would you think illegals are not crossing the border with weapons? Because they don't want to do something illegal ?
I don't know when the last time you bought a weapon was, but I suggest you look into it. It is a lot harder than you would like to believe.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by spence

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

Do drunks drivers repeat with the the same booze or cars...lets get rid if booze, vehicles and while we are at it cell phones. Texting is the number one cause of auto accidents these days. It's not the people, it's the guns, booze, cars and cell phones that do all the killing...lets ban them all.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

Spence, I posted the data to show that here in the US, gun homicide rates are not proportional to our gun ownership - our gun murder rates are much higher than what can be explained by an increase in gun ownership. In other words, the presence of guns does not explain our gun homicide rate. The only plausible alternative explanation is the culture. Kudos to the mouthpieces on your side who have been wildly successful at de-valuing life, as well as mocking religion and family values. Also liberal heroes in Hollywood exposing our kids to vile filth. Nah, that can't have anything to do with it.

You absolutely know that you are posting things that are contradicted by the data, yet you continue to spout this because you want it to be true. Incredible.