Why can't teachers/cops live with 401(k)'s instead of pensions?

[scottw]

I think I get it...a teacher....I'm sorry...a "highly paid professional educator(gym teacher)" working 186 days a year(how many days do you actually work when you use up all of your sick and personal days?) should not have to get a part-time job to be able to do what they love in the form of employment in a particular town....but a town resident who probably works more than 186 days a year is living "beyond their means" if they find themselves needing a part-time job to pay the taxes to pay the highly paid professional educator working 186 days a year while enjoying health benefits not found in the private sector and a guaranteed income after retirement that is in no way based on their contibutions through their employment regardless of whether or not the money exists to pay them.......sounds to me like the teachers and others are living beyond the public's means....
did anyone see Gov Christie's stats about NJ education and compensation?
before you assume I hate teachers...I have a lifetime of experience with teachers as both of my parents were teachers, dad was a science teacher(with his masters) and my wife is currently a teacher...

she was substituting a couple of years ago and it was quite funny that the sub notification system that she was a part of would call the house to request subs...it would be somewhat quiet through the week but every Friday the phone would ring off of the hook and very often the Monday after a vacation was quite busy...

[likwid]

If you cannot afford your living expenses.
You're living beyond your means.

Stop blaming everyone else.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

I think I get it...a teacher....I'm sorry...a "highly paid professional educator(gym teacher)" working 186 days a year(how many days do you actually work when you use up all of your sick and personal days?) should not have to get a part-time job to be able to do what they love in the form of employment in a particular town....but a town resident who probably works more than 186 days a year is living "beyond their means" if they find themselves needing a part-time job to pay the taxes to pay the highly paid professional educator working 186 days a year while enjoying health benefits not found in the private sector and a guaranteed income after retirement that is in no way based on their contibutions through their employment regardless of whether or not the money exists to pay them.......sounds to me like the teachers and others are living beyond the public's means....
did anyone see Gov Christie's stats about NJ education and compensation?
before you assume I hate teachers...I have a lifetime of experience with teachers as both of my parents were teachers, dad was a science teacher(with his masters) and my wife is currently a teacher...

she was substituting a couple of years ago and it was quite funny that the sub notification system that she was a part of would call the house to request subs...it would be somewhat quiet through the week but every Friday the phone would ring off of the hook and very often the Monday after a vacation was quite busy...

Great post, you nailed it!

When public servants (which includes everyone whose salary is funded through taxes) rank way above the median in terms of average income, with insane benefits on top of that, you have a bubble.

Here in CT, our tax rates are about the highest in the nation, and so our our incomes. That means that there is a TON of tax revenue. On top of that, teh state gets hundreds of millions from the casinos every year.

Yet with all that revebue, we are still on the verge of bankruptcy, and by far the biggest expense item is unionized benefits.

So who lived beyond their means? Those public unions are like a 25 yera old NBA star who makes $20 mill a year but goes bankrupt. The problem AIN'T a lack of revenue, it's a lack of common sense in spending habits.

You cannot look at the facts rationally, and come to a different conclusion. Only those with a political axe to grind could possibly disagree.

And I respect teachers as well. But I do not accept the premise that the financial security of teachers is more important to society, than the financial security of those who work in the private sector.

[zimmy]

I answered your question. i wouldn't mind getting social security and a 401k. What else do you want me to answer? As far as the raise, I don't know what the actual value was, but I am not at the max step, so I was in line to get a step increase along with a cost of living increase. At the point i am at it was a pretty big difference. The step freeze means I am at the 10th step, when I would have gone to 11th, and the cost of living increase was frozen. I will always be one step lower than I would have been, so over my career it adds up. Also had an increase in benefits contributions and increase in insurance co-pay.
i was sincere about being sorry you are so mad. maybe in your town things have been different, but I think our union was pretty reasonable.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I answered your question. i wouldn't mind getting social security and a 401k. What else do you want me to answer? As far as the raise, I don't know what the actual value was, but I am not at the max step, so I was in line to get a step increase along with a cost of living increase. At the point i am at it was a pretty big difference. The step freeze means I am at the 10th step, when I would have gone to 11th, and the cost of living increase was frozen. I will always be one step lower than I would have been, so over my career it adds up. Also had an increase in benefits contributions and increase in insurance co-pay.
i was sincere about being sorry you are so mad. maybe in your town things have been different, but I think our union was pretty reasonable.

OK, you did answer my question, thanks. Sincerely. The vast majority of your bretheren are not nearly as reasonable, and your unions use negotiating tactics that would make the Gambino family proud.

I assure you that forgoing a raise for a couple of years isn't costing you $3000 every year. It might cost you that mush in the year you gave up tha raise, but not in perpetuity.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

OK, you did answer my question, thanks. Sincerely. The vast majority of your bretheren are not nearly as reasonable, and your unions use negotiating tactics that would make the Gambino family proud.

I assure you that forgoing a raise for a couple of years isn't costing you $3000 every year. It might cost you that mush in the year you gave up tha raise, but not in perpetuity.

Jim I don't know where the Ct. unions get their strength to strong arm elected officials into giving them these huge contracts, but I do know for the last five to ten years the power has swung around the other wy in Massachusetts, where unions that represent every facet of public employee have lost tremendous amounts of bargaining power.

In thirty seven years of public service, never bargaining for a contract, but being the recipient of what was bargained, both good and bad, I never ever saw any officers in my union strong arm anyone, and thats in any form. Now if what your saying that officers new certain things about certain elected officials and they used that, well you should take that info to the nearest F.B.I. office.

And why is it that you base everything on your being an actuary. Everyone here is familiar with unfunded liabilty, in all its forms. My wife has her graduate degree in math and she wouldn't go for any interviews to do actuarial work, because the money wasn't there.

I retired from public service last July. I don't make enough to survive on either. SO I WENT OUT AND GOT A SECOND JOB TO MAKE ENDS MEET.

You don't need to adjust the retirement system in regard to the 44 yr. old retiring and taking another job as a detective. The residents there just need to enact legislation making that illegal, they probaly wont though. Who wouldn't hire a retired, qualified person, who probably serve with distinction in one town, in another town, if he was healthy and had good references.

It is true, at least from my perspective, the "pay peanuts, get monkeys" analogy. I'll say this to back that up. When the men who served in WW2 and Korea came home there were no jobs. The towns gave them the first opening on various town departments as a way of thanking them for their service. Those men, were for the most part uneducated (high aschool), some were illiterate, I know this personally, but they had one thing going for them, and that is they believe in the order of things. Thats because of where they were four the last four or five years. These men, from my perspective were thugs at best. And the town didn't really care. They only cared that they didn't see anything, and the town didn't get sued. Well after a while towns did get sued. Because these guys did what they did best any way they could physically. The only people who saw the end result of this physical activity were the parents and loved ones when the beaten person came home. Thats why rules changed, and had to change, and that is why the Quinn bill in Massachusetts was first introduced in Massachusetts in regard to police officers. Even you will admit that a more highly educated individual is one whose skills and critical thinking proceeses better prepares the officer for the street. Now to the point. Educated officers received more compentsation than uneducated officers. Most officers now have some college. Some officers have several college degrees. In private business you dont have to ask for more money for degree work. You automatically recive it. In public service we have to beg for it. But I am digressing.................Educated officer dont place themselves or the municpalities in the postion to have to defend themselves from civil rights actions that cost the towns they work for and the insurance company that cover the towns huge sums of money. In Massachusetts, brutality compalints were so common they stopped reporting them 15 or 20 years ago. Now they report them because they make news because they rarely happen. So, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, which translates to hired thugs, who can't be controlled, and act out worse in some ways than the perps on the streets do. But if you pay a decent wage to officers or other emplyees the benefits received back from the employees most often cant be seen. I can tell you personally I ended up in federal court three times, and its not pleasant. I was a witness all three times, never a defendent. But I can't tell you the defendents are just as I described above. Uneducated, uncaring, willing to fight at the drop of a hat, because the people they were dealing with they looked upon them as someone trying to take something from them. That doesn't happen anymore.

Oh, I have my own 401K also.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

maybe in your town things have been different, but I think our union was pretty reasonable.

Zimmy, if my town's union was the only one being demanding, the state of CT wouldn't be in the gaping whole it's in. The profession is compensated at a level that's nowhere near sustainable.

[RIJIMMY]

likwid, your argument is basically that "we the people" have no say in what our governments spend $ on or how much we pay?
If taxes get to be to much, is that we dont live within our means?
I dont know you but I can pretty much conclude that you're single and dont have kids. Expenses, such as taxes, take on a different meaning once you have financial decisions that impact others.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I can pretty much conclude that you're single and dont have kids. Expenses, such as taxes, take on a different meaning once you have financial decisions that impact others.

That, or he is a member of a public union, or he is married to someone who is...or he's successful enough to not have to worry about these debt levels that will soon have a crushing impact on everyone who's not a millionaire.

[Fly Rod]

Confucious say, he/she who complains about what the other worker gets in their benifit package, has to much free time.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Confucious say, he/she who complains about what the other worker gets in their benifit package, has to much free time.

You see Fly Rod, I complain because the more they get, the less I have to spend on my kids. At my company, if I reward myself with a fat pension, you (the customer) has the choice to buy my product, or get it somewhere cheaper if you want. You have that choice. Public unions give themselves whatever they want, and then just take it from the rest of us with force of law. It's not nearly the same thing as what happens in the private sector, it's not nearly fair, and it's about to implode.

Again, take the cowardly way out, avoid answering a tough but fair question, and insult the person asking the question. I don't get why someone like you reads this forum, if all you do is insult people instead of offering thoughtful responses to probing questions.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don't get why someone like you reads this forum, if all you do is insult people instead of offering thoughtful responses to probing questions.

I, personally, don't get why somebody comes to a Fishing Website just to argue Politics. But, To each his Own

[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I, personally, don't get why somebody comes to a Fishing Website just to argue Politics. But, To each his Own

that was good!

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I, personally, don't get why somebody comes to a Fishing Website just to argue Politics. But, To each his Own

It's the political discussion forum, correct?

[JohnR]

Nothing to see here folks.

If the needs of others have raised all of your fees, created some new ones, increased your taxes, jacked up your health care costs, doubled your utilities (and added more fees), clearly you are living beyond your means.

What? You got laid off? Had to start at 35% less than what you made before? Clearly you are living beyond your means.

Need to cut back your expenses? No, you just go out and get a job that pays better. What? No jobs? Well, pick up a second. Clearly, you are living beyond your means.



Aye carumba. I just got my W2s. It has taken me 8 years to get to within 85% of the dollar figure (forget about inflation) I made in 2002. In those intervening 8 years I've constantly had to cut to live within my means yet I have paid more and more so others did not need to worry about their means because their means are not negotiable.

And I won't pick specifically on the public sector unions - a lot of them DO bust their a$$es. But the politicians elected have been doing a pees poor job of living within their means.

We as a nation are doing an awful job of living within our means, yet we continue to borrow and spend more and more, well beyond our means.

Hmmm. Wonder where this leads ?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Hmmm. Wonder where this leads ?

speaking Chinese Rosetta Stone anyone?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Nothing to see here folks.

If the needs of others have raised all of your fees, created some new ones, increased your taxes, jacked up your health care costs, doubled your utilities (and added more fees), clearly you are living beyond your means.

What? You got laid off? Had to start at 35% less than what you made before? Clearly you are living beyond your means.

Need to cut back your expenses? No, you just go out and get a job that pays better. What? No jobs? Well, pick up a second. Clearly, you are living beyond your means.



Aye carumba. I just got my W2s. It has taken me 8 years to get to within 85% of the dollar figure (forget about inflation) I made in 2002. In those intervening 8 years I've constantly had to cut to live within my means yet I have paid more and more so others did not need to worry about their means because their means are not negotiable.

And I won't pick specifically on the public sector unions - a lot of them DO bust their a$$es. But the politicians elected have been doing a pees poor job of living within their means.

We as a nation are doing an awful job of living within our means, yet we continue to borrow and spend more and more, well beyond our means.

Hmmm. Wonder where this leads ?

"Nothing to see here folks."

Yes there is somehitng to see, because somehow likwid and chesepeake Bill don't get it.

"I've constantly had to cut to live within my means yet I have paid more and more so others did not need to worry about their means because their means are not negotiable. "

Very well said. The crazy part is, these union members will tell you of the awful sacrifices they've made to keep spending where it is.

"And I won't pick specifically on the public sector unions - a lot of them DO bust their a$$es."

I agree many work hard. But the fact is, those unions have made demands on the public they serve, which are unreasonable. Look at how underfunded those benefit plans are...doesn't that prove that the promises made were stupid?

Union benefits are a much bigger debt item than politician salaries.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=Jim in CT;Union benefits are a much bigger debt item than politician salaries.[/QUOTE]

union benefits were "purchased" through and as political graft....the union members represent an organized, easily mobilized voting block and politicians have paid for that support at election time using public money and promises in the form of contracts, perks and pensions promises for a very long time...we are paying their salaries with borrowed money, we borrowed a fortune to "save" their jobs and creat work with the stimulus(BORROWED MONEY) and their pensions unfunded are paid with borrowed money....PLUS INTEREST!!!!! WOW

I think they'll get a nice "injection" with unspent stimulus funds prior to the next election

[likwid]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

likwid, your argument is basically that "we the people" have no say in what our governments spend $ on or how much we pay?
If taxes get to be to much, is that we dont live within our means?
I dont know you but I can pretty much conclude that you're single and dont have kids. Expenses, such as taxes, take on a different meaning once you have financial decisions that impact others.

Having/not having kids is a personal choice that all should consider before putting themselves in that position for the next 18-23 years.

Why exactly should a cop/teacher/whatever have to suffer for other people's decisions?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by likwid

Having/not having kids is a personal choice that all should consider before putting themselves in that position for the next 18-23 years.

Why exactly should a cop/teacher/whatever have to suffer for other people's decisions?

26...we've redefined "childhood" to age 26 now and 27 in Indiana I think....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Why exactly should a cop/teacher/whatever have to suffer for other people's decisions?

You're clueless, you just don't get it.

The cop/teacher makes demands that bankrupt most states in the country, and you're saying the cop and teacher are suffering?

What "suffering"? I'm asking the cop and the teacher to live with the same benefits available to those that pay taxes. Why is that "suffering"? I sure don't feel like I'm suffering with my 401(k), so why is it inhuman to ask people who work for me, to live with the same benefits? Why are they special?

Never mind, I know you won't try to answer, you never do...

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by likwid

Having/not having kids is a personal choice that all should consider before putting themselves in that position for the next 18-23 years.

Why exactly should a cop/teacher/whatever have to suffer for other people's decisions?

I agree, but kids change your outlook and what you pay. What I pay monthly for daycare would pay 99% of most peoples mortgage. Tack on increased taxes, when does it become financially not worth it for me or my wife to work? You may think Im kidding, but my wife and I have had this discussion many, many times. I have done hypothetical calculations with the main variable - our taxes. Do we want to have a country where prosperous people cant afford to work? I dont expect anyone to pay a dime for my kids, but news flash most of the people who you side with politically DO.


Why should a teacher or cop suffer from others decisions? Kind of silly question, no? I suffer from my boss's decisions. I suffer from my coworkers decisions. I can leave at any time. A teacher or cop should suffer OR benefit from others decisions too. There needs to be fiscal responsibility and we - you and me, are the bosses, we pay the bills. If teachers or cops dont like the benefits or pay, they can pursue other careers. the market should be defining wages and benefits.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Its www.Striped-bass.com.....correct

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Its Striped-Bass Fishing | Striper Fishing.....correct

Dad, if it makes it more palatable to you, I'll re-phrase.

The last time I owned a fishing boat was a 20 foot Key West center console which I loved. Paired with an E-tec 130. One day my son and I were casting eels with custom rods made by J&B tackle in Niantic, matched with spinning reels and 14 pound braid, along Fishers Island, NY. I noticed my neighbor who is a public schoolteacher, married to another pubilc schoolteacher, and he is in a 27 foot grady white center console.

My boy asked me why we couldn't afford a boat that sweet, and I said "well son, since I'm not in a public union, I have to put $15k a year into my 401(k). If I had a pension instead, my financial security in retirement would be everybody else's problem except my own, and in that case, we could put that money towards our dream boat." At this time, we were near Isabella beach at high tide, and the fishing was picking up.

He asked me "why don't you have a pension?" as he landed a nice schoolie.

As I removed the size 5/0 Gamagatsu circle hook, I said "because they are too expensive to ask our customers to pay for". As the tide slackened, we moved to the Race and trolled umbrella rigs with wire line. We let out 300 feet of wire to get below the cocktail blues that were down to 10 feet or so.

So he said "so why do teachers get pensions then. I'm only 4 years old, but even I see that it doesn't seem fair".

On the way in, we stopped at the warm water discharge at Millstone Power Plant and hooked up with some albies. "Son, I said, you're right, it's not fair, and not only that, it is bankrupting our entire country. When you get a paper route in 5 years, they'll put you in the 75% income tax bracket to pay for all this spending".

While cleaning the boat afterwards with Colinite boat cleaner (which works great when paired with Colinite wax), he said "gee Dad, it seems selfish for public unionized employees to place such a significant tax burden on the public that they claim to serve. If we can all live with 401(k)'s, why can't they?"

We grilled the stripers with lemon, garlic, onions, and pepper.

Other than the spot burning, is that framed better?

[scottw]

that was really good!

"I'm 4 years old and even I can understand that" heh...heh

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

that was really good!

"I'm 4 years old and even I can understand that" heh...heh

You post the stats that say that the retirement benefits alone are underfunded by $8,333 per person.

I ask if that doesn't suggest that the current benefits are too rich.

For responses, I get...

"why didn't you go into teaching"

"what do you care what someone else gets"

"seems like you're just jealous" (which I guess I am)

I just want someone to tell me why it's not unfair and reckless...

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You post the stats that say that the retirement benefits alone are underfunded by $8,333 per person.

I ask if that doesn't suggest that the current benefits are too rich.

For responses, I get...

"why didn't you go into teaching"

"what do you care what someone else gets"

"seems like you're just jealous" (which I guess I am)

I just want someone to tell me why it's not unfair and reckless...

You forgot two questions...
How many town meetings have you gone to to get answers to why there is a 4% increase this year?
And I'm still waiting to hear what the 4% increase was for and by how many students there are this year compared to last year?

Just out of curiosity, does your company give you a cost of living pay increase every year? Most do.

And your story, while cute, leaves alot open.
How long did they save for the boat?
Do you know exactly how much were paid per year?
Do you know if any family members died and left them some money?
Do they play the market?
Does one of them have a trust fund?

Judging others by material posessions is very shallow of you.

[Chesapeake Bill]

Jim,

Depsite your acertions, I do get it. You do not. The Nobel Prize winning economist George Friedman even understands the value that government research puts into the economy. Were it not for DARPA attempting to share research we might not have the internet, arguably one of the largest economic drivers of the modern era. Without scientists at NASA trying to build a better space ship we would not have the IPod. Government's role (particularly the military machine's) is to absorb the high cost of product development through research so it can then find comemrcial applications. Sure you can pick some obscure research about bovine flatulence research and argue its validity. What you cannot do is back up you statments about public servants building wealth. Public servants oversee the billions spent on research every year so that our economy continues to thrive and rebound. If the students are not educated they cannot compete and the economy suffers. If crime goes up businesses leave. Therefore public service does help build wealth. I find your tirades like those of a big bully who fires shots across the bow of others but calls foul when they fire back.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Jim,

Depsite your acertions, I do get it. You do not. The Nobel Prize winning economist George Friedman even understands the value that government research puts into the economy. Were it not for DARPA attempting to share research we might not have the internet, arguably one of the largest economic drivers of the modern era. Without scientists at NASA trying to build a better space ship we would not have the IPod. Government's role (particularly the military machine's) is to absorb the high cost of product development through research so it can then find comemrcial applications. Sure you can pick some obscure research about bovine flatulence research and argue its validity. What you cannot do is back up you statments about public servants building wealth. Public servants oversee the billions spent on research every year so that our economy continues to thrive and rebound. If the students are not educated they cannot compete and the economy suffers. If crime goes up businesses leave. Therefore public service does help build wealth. I find your tirades like those of a big bully who fires shots across the bow of others but calls foul when they fire back.

There would be no commercial spinoffs from government funded research without entrepeneurs. Nor would there be government funding of anything without those businesses and the employees created by entrepeneurs and the taxes collected from them.

Jim wants to know why public servants should get better bennies than the private servants who fund them. And he especially referred to the more local type public employees, not the rarified research types.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Jim,

Depsite your acertions, I do get it. You do not. The Nobel Prize winning economist George Friedman even understands the value that government research puts into the economy. Were it not for DARPA attempting to share research we might not have the internet, arguably one of the largest economic drivers of the modern era. Without scientists at NASA trying to build a better space ship we would not have the IPod. Government's role (particularly the military machine's) is to absorb the high cost of product development through research so it can then find comemrcial applications. Sure you can pick some obscure research about bovine flatulence research and argue its validity. What you cannot do is back up you statments about public servants building wealth. Public servants oversee the billions spent on research every year so that our economy continues to thrive and rebound. If the students are not educated they cannot compete and the economy suffers. If crime goes up businesses leave. Therefore public service does help build wealth. I find your tirades like those of a big bully who fires shots across the bow of others but calls foul when they fire back.

really?, what does any of what you wrote have to do with teachers and police and the burden of unfunded pension obligations?