Just curious, would any of you vote for Santorum

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Is Santorum considered a fiscal conservative now? He was Mr Earmark in the senate... I haven't heard any pundits from the right refer to him as a fiscal conservative...

If you are unsure if Santorum is a fiscal conservative or not, I can only assume that either you haven't heard a single word he has said about his economic vision, or that you have poor comprehension.

In any event, compared to Obama... Castro, Stalin, and Kim Jong Il are fiscal conservatives. Santorum believes in free market capitalism, small federal govt, and low taxes, allowing for individual freedom and prosperity. Obama is obviously a European style socialist who despises individual prosperity, unless the prosperous person votes Democrat that is.

Santorum isn't a libertarian or anything. But unlike Obama, he knows that you can't spend your way out of bankruptcy, and unlike Obama, he knows you cannot borrow your way out of debt. Unlike Obama, Santorum knows that in this environment, we have no business spending $1.5 trillion more than we take in. Finally, unlike Obama, Santorum concedes that social security and Medicare need fixing in order to be saved. Whenever a conservative statwes that irrefutable fact, Obama says that person hates old people and sick people, and that kind of manipulation works on folks who have zero intellectual curiorisity.

Where am I wrong?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If you are unsure if Santorum is a fiscal conservative or not, I can only assume that either you haven't heard a single word he has said about his economic vision, or that you have poor comprehension.

Where am I wrong?

Because what he says on the stump will be different when he gets into office, based on his track record in the senate. IM Very HO even given my poor comprehension.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If you are unsure if Santorum is a fiscal conservative or not, I can only assume that either you haven't heard a single word he has said about his economic vision, or that you have poor comprehension.

In any event, compared to Obama... Castro, Stalin, and Kim Jong Il are fiscal conservatives. Santorum believes in free market capitalism, small federal govt, and low taxes, allowing for individual freedom and prosperity. Obama is obviously a European style socialist who despises individual prosperity, unless the prosperous person votes Democrat that is.

Santorum isn't a libertarian or anything. But unlike Obama, he knows that you can't spend your way out of bankruptcy, and unlike Obama, he knows you cannot borrow your way out of debt. Unlike Obama, Santorum knows that in this environment, we have no business spending $1.5 trillion more than we take in. Finally, unlike Obama, Santorum concedes that social security and Medicare need fixing in order to be saved. Whenever a conservative statwes that irrefutable fact, Obama says that person hates old people and sick people, and that kind of manipulation works on folks who have zero intellectual curiorisity.

Where am I wrong?

1. Obama has never said a person who thinks medicare needs fixing hates old and sick people. By extension, the intelectual curiousity garbage.

2. Castro, Stalin, Kim JOng Il are "conservative" compared to Obama. Yes, they are closer to Santorum, than Obama, but it is they are insane, not conservative.
3. Obama despises individual prosperity. Completely untrue and a juvenile analysis of his positions.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

1. Obama has never said a person who thinks medicare needs fixing hates old and sick people. By extension, the intelectual curiousity garbage.

2. Castro, Stalin, Kim JOng Il are "conservative" compared to Obama. Yes, they are closer to Santorum, than Obama, but it is they are insane, not conservative.
3. Obama despises individual prosperity. Completely untrue and a juvenile analysis of his positions.

"Obama has never said a person who thinks medicare needs fixing hates old and sick people. By extension, the intelectual curiousity garbage."

A few months ago, Paul Ryan said that we needed to overhaul Social Security and Medicare, in order to save those vital programs. Obama responded by saying that Ryan wanted to take benefits away from old people and sick people. Although to be fair, Obama has also hinted that those programs need to be cut in order to be saved...

"Castro, Stalin, Kim JOng Il are "conservative" compared to Obama. "

Ever hear of hyperbole Zimmy? OK. I'll keep it objective. Obama is adding more to our debt than any president in the history of our country, and to make it worse, he's wasting that money. Instead of helping entrepeneurs grow businesses and actually create wealth, he gave the majority of it to unions, saving public sector jobs that can only be saved again next year by raising taxes, ie, by destroying wealth.

"Obama despises individual prosperity. Completely untrue "

Obama has repeatedly said that the wealthy aren't paying their fair share. That is what is completely untrue. I have also posted several times that even if we eliminated the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy, the extra tax revenue would take more than 500 years to pay down our debt. What that means is, we cannot tax our way out of this, but taxing is all he talks about. not only does he not want to talk about spending cuts, he is increasing spending.

You go ahead and tell me where I'm wrong, OK?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Although to be fair, Obama has also hinted that those programs need to be cut in order to be saved...

"Castro, Stalin, Kim JOng Il are "conservative" compared to Obama. "

Ever hear of hyperbole Zimmy?

"Obama despises individual prosperity. Completely untrue "

Obama has repeatedly said that the wealthy aren't paying their fair share.

You go ahead and tell me where I'm wrong, OK?

I don't need to... you said it yourself

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If you are unsure if Santorum is a fiscal conservative or not, I can only assume that either you haven't heard a single word he has said about his economic vision, or that you have poor comprehension.

Or you're gullible enough to go strictly by what he says as opposed to his voting history.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Or you're gullible enough to go strictly by what he says as opposed to his voting history.

(1) voters voted for Obama because he said he'd be a centrist, despite his voting history. Correct? I guess they were all as gullable as you claim I am with Santorum...

(2) What did Santorum do that was so fiscally liberal? It's my understanding that his record was pretty conservative, though I could be wrong. You are the one who brought up his voting history, where are the details?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

(1) voters voted for Obama because he said he'd be a centrist, despite his voting history. Correct? I guess they were all as gullable as you claim I am with Santorum...

(2) What did Santorum do that was so fiscally liberal? It's my understanding that his record was pretty conservative, though I could be wrong. You are the one who brought up his voting history, where are the details?

(1) I never said anything about Obama. I thought we were talking about Santorum. Instead of defending Santorum with "yeah well Obama sucks because" kind of replies, how about sticking to the subject at hand by defending your guy on his merits.

(2) Let's look at Santorum's voting record:support of Medicare prescription drug program, supported that whole "Bridge to Nowhere" Bill that was chock full of massive pork, his repeated Yea votes for raising the debt ceiling, continued support of providing funds to Amtrak... should I go on?

I read a "Taxpayers for Common Sense" article yesterday that showed during Santorum's time in the House and Senate that he had at least $1billion of pet project he stuffed into bills. Looking for reference article now.

Now, that's not to say that he hasn't also voted in a way that would be in line with the views of a fiscal conservative, but remove your veil and stop trying to frame him up as a textbook example of what a fiscal conservative should be.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

(1) I never said anything about Obama. I thought we were talking about Santorum. Instead of defending Santorum with "yeah well Obama sucks because" kind of replies, how about sticking to the subject at hand by defending your guy on his merits.

(2) Let's look at Santorum's voting record:support of Medicare prescription drug program, supported that whole "Bridge to Nowhere" Bill that was chock full of massive pork, his repeated Yea votes for raising the debt ceiling, continued support of providing funds to Amtrak... should I go on?

I read a "Taxpayers for Common Sense" article yesterday that showed during Santorum's time in the House and Senate that he had at least $1billion of pet project he stuffed into bills. Looking for reference article now.

Now, that's not to say that he hasn't also voted in a way that would be in line with the views of a fiscal conservative, but remove your veil and stop trying to frame him up as a textbook example of what a fiscal conservative should be.

Johnny, I'm no huge Santorum fan. But if someone says Santorum is a whack job because he's a strict Catholic, I don't see anything wrong with pouinting out that our current President has supported a church that is a lot weirder, a lot more divisive, and a lot more hateful, than anyone can ever claim about Catholicism.

I don't see Santorum through any veil whatsoever. That's why I simply asked you to provide examples of his spending record that were not in line with conservative principles. All I did was ask a question, do you get that prickly every time someone asks you a question?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

(1) voters voted for Obama because he said he'd be a centrist, despite his voting history. Correct? I guess they were all as gullable as you claim I am with Santorum...

Is that a joke? Tax cuts for the majority of Americans. Moderate on the environment. Only thing he has done gun related is relax some regulations. On yeah, a Romney based health care program for the country... Helping the revolution in Libya... We'll find out how centerist when he gets to go up against the nut Santorum and see where the independents go.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Is that a joke? Tax cuts for the majority of Americans. Moderate on the environment. Only thing he has done gun related is relax some regulations. On yeah, a Romney based health care program for the country... Helping the revolution in Libya... We'll find out how centerist when he gets to go up against the nut Santorum and see where the independents go.

Obamacare. The stimulus, which gave billions and billions to public labor unions, while not keeping unemployment below 8% as he said. Forcing the catholic Church to hand out free contraceptives. Adding more to our debt than any president in the history of our nation. Not the actions of a centrist...Taking over the auto industry, telling them what kind of cars to make (the kind that nobody wants, but who cares about that).

I'm not saying Obama cannot win, I'm saying he's no more of a centrist than Santorum would be.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Obamacare. The stimulus, which gave billions and billions to public labor unions, while not keeping unemployment below 8% as he said. Forcing the catholic Church to hand out free contraceptives. Adding more to our debt than any president in the history of our nation. Not the actions of a centrist...Taking over the auto industry, telling them what kind of cars to make (the kind that nobody wants, but who cares about that).

I'm not saying Obama cannot win, I'm saying he's no more of a centrist than Santorum would be.

Obamacare: so you won't vote for Romney then...

The stimulus: no way to really know, but many independent economists have said unemployment would have been several points higher and some say the stimulus was too small. Unemployment doubled under Bush , went up about 2% more in the beginning of Obama's presidency, has dropped back down and is trending down.

Adding more debt: yeah 2% more than Bush 2 at this point. 8% more than Reagan, at this point. Definitely a sign of a radical.

Taking over the auto industry: again... you must be joking. GM has a record $7.6 billion profit last year. Chrysler had the first profitable year since 2005. The loans to the auto companies prevented economic devastation.

Remember, this started by you claiming Obama was so far from a centrist. So he pushed for the same health plan as the leading Republican candidate. Raised debt during a recession, about the same percent as the previous republican president over 8 years and within 10% of the Republican political messiah. $80 billion loan to the auto industry, most of which was paid back, almost exactly the same amount of subsidies for fossil fuel industry from 2002-2008. Quite radical.

[spence]

Originally Posted by zimmy

The stimulus: no way to really know, but many independent economists have said unemployment would have been several points higher and some say the stimulus was too small. Unemployment doubled under Bush , went up about 2% more in the beginning of Obama's presidency, has dropped back down and is trending down.

Adding more debt: yeah 2% more than Bush 2 at this point. 8% more than Reagan, at this point. Definitely a sign of a radical.

Taking over the auto industry: again... you must be joking. GM has a record $7.6 billion profit last year. Chrysler had the first profitable year since 2005. The loans to the auto companies prevented economic devastation.

Remember, this started by you claiming Obama was so far from a centrist. So he pushed for the same health plan as the leading Republican candidate. Raised debt during a recession, about the same percent as the previous republican president over 8 years and within 10% of the Republican political messiah. $80 billion loan to the auto industry, most of which was paid back, almost exactly the same amount of subsidies for fossil fuel industry from 2002-2008. Quite radical.

You forgot about Obama's radical obsession with killing terrorists. In some circles they call it appeasement

Dow closed above 13,000 yesterday for the first time in 4 years. The auto industry, a cornerstone of the American fabric is doing well and consumer confidence is rising.

The market sees an Obama victory in November and is responding positively.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Obamacare: so you won't vote for Romney then...

The stimulus: no way to really know, but many independent economists have said unemployment would have been several points higher and some say the stimulus was too small. Unemployment doubled under Bush , went up about 2% more in the beginning of Obama's presidency, has dropped back down and is trending down.

Adding more debt: yeah 2% more than Bush 2 at this point. 8% more than Reagan, at this point. Definitely a sign of a radical.

Taking over the auto industry: again... you must be joking. GM has a record $7.6 billion profit last year. Chrysler had the first profitable year since 2005. The loans to the auto companies prevented economic devastation.

Remember, this started by you claiming Obama was so far from a centrist. So he pushed for the same health plan as the leading Republican candidate. Raised debt during a recession, about the same percent as the previous republican president over 8 years and within 10% of the Republican political messiah. $80 billion loan to the auto industry, most of which was paid back, almost exactly the same amount of subsidies for fossil fuel industry from 2002-2008. Quite radical.

Zimmy, you tried to portray Obama as centrist by ignoring everything liberal he's ever done. A person isn't defined only by the moderate things they do, they are defined by everything they do. A child knows this, but you tried that cheap ploy anyway. I'm sorry if I embarassed you by pointing that out, but when you deal with me, you would do well to remember that I am somewhat knowledgable of actual events, I am pretty thoughtful, and fairly rational. You aren't going to convince me that Obama isn't liberal by ignoring everything liberal he's ever done.

"Obamacare: so you won't vote for Romney then... "

Please show me where Romney suggested that he would impose Obamacare on the entire nation, and I will withdraw my support.

See Zimmy, you, like Spence, have already made up your mind, and you then try to bend all the facts to fit your agenda. I look at facts as they actually are, and then make my decision. That's how critical thinking works.

"The stimulus: no way to really know"

No way to know? Let's talk about what we do know. It cost $750 billion. Obama claims that it saved 3 million jobs. Even if we believe that, that works out to $250,000 per job. Ridiculous. We also know that most of the jobs saved were public sector union jobs (big suprise, since public sector labor unions give all their $$ to Democrats). Those jobs can only be saved again next year, and every year after that, by raising taxes on folks. Those jobs do not create wealth, the destroy wealth by requiring taxes to fund them. What else do we know? OBAMA HIMSELF admitted on TV that the country is worse off now than it was 3 years ago. We also know that we didn't have that money laying around, we borrowed it. So we have to pay interest on that, meaning our kids and grandkids will be paying for it.

"Adding more debt: yeah 2% more than Bush 2 at this point"

EXCUSE ME? Are you taking your cues from Spence, and literally making it up as you go along?

US Federal Debt by Year - Charts Tables History

In 2008, when Bush left, debt was $10.0 trillion. At the end of 2011, it was $14.8 trillion. Assuming these numbers are correct, that's a 48% increase. When I got my degree in math at UCONN, they taught me that 48% is a whole lot more than 2%. Furthermore, some of the Bush debt was awesome debt...for instance, Bush's AIDS funding is credited by Stanford University (not a conservative think tank) with saving the lives of more than a million Africans. I'll HAPPILY pay higher taxes for something that noble. Wht has Obama done that can compare? What do we have to show for a 48% increase in debt?

In 3 years, Obama has increased the debt by 48%. Zimmy, if you have different numbers saying he increased debt by 2%, please enlighten me.

"GM has a record $7.6 billion profit last year"

When you get subsidized $$ from the govt, and permission from the president to screw your bondholders, it's a bit easier to be profitable.
Zimmy, I thought the Occupy agitators were opposed to a system that rewards political insiders at the expense of everyone else. Liberals went berserk when Bush bailed out the banks (which I was also opposed to), but those same liberals think it's great that Obama bailed out the auto industry? Why the double-standard? Answer...the auto industry is unionized, and unions support Democrats, so it's OK to bail them out. In other words, organizations that are sypmathetic to liberals can get huge bailouts, and nobody else.

"Remember, this started by you claiming Obama was so far from a centrist."

Correct. No one who supports infanticide can be called a centrist.

"So he pushed for the same health plan as the leading Republican candidate"

Wrong. America isn't the same thing as Massachusetts. Apples and oranges. What's good for a particular state isn't necessarily what's good for our country.

"Raised debt during a recession, about the same percent as the previous republican president over 8 years and within 10% of the Republican political messiah"

That has been proven by me as 100% false. Not even close to the truth. Not even close. You go ahead and show me how he only increased debt by 2%, and I'll donate $100 to the charity of your choice (probbaly some charity trying to free Abu Mumia Jamal from prison), and I'll do it publicly here. Good luck.

You have been completely, and I mean completely, annihilated.

2% increase in debt. And here in CT, my side loses to your side every single year. I'm glad my financial security is just about all set in after-tax accounts, so that when the sh*t hits the fan thanks to people like you who don't know the difference between 2% and 48%, my family will be secure. Don't come crying to me when the checks start bouncing Zimmy.

2% increase in debt! Did you hear that everybody? No need to be worried about the debt, stop claiming that Obama is flushing the economy down the toilet and following Europe off the cliff! Zimmy says that Obama has only increased debt by 2%, so there's no need for concern! The Tea Party agenda has no merit, none at all. Nothing to see here, no need for concern.

Thanks Zimmy, because I was under the opinion that we had accumulated debt to the point of it being a national security issue.

Zimmy, since you were making jibberish up, why did yuo stop at the 2% lie? Why didn't you claim that Obama personaly paid back all of our debt out of his own checkbook? Then he'd really be somethiing...