inner city and the democratic party

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

That's quite a negative view of ourselves, we are after all, a product of history.-spence

I said IF! When I said "if this is so, we have come to be in a bad way," I was referring to your views, not mine. I didn't express views about us. I view some of us positively (the doers, creators, warriors, strivers, the free and independent minded, especially constitutional originalists), and I view some of us negatively--slackers, those who wait for help when they have the ability to help themselves, socialists, marxists.

Your view that we are a product of history defines, concisely, the difference in our views--probably an essential difference between conservatives and liberals. My view is that history is a product of us.

[Joe]

How do you feel about the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of teeming shores, the homeless and the tempest-tossed?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Joe

How do you feel about the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of teeming shores, the homeless and the tempest-tossed?

depends....are they coming here for opportunity and the chance to work for a better life for themselves and their children or are they coming here to become generationally dependent on government programs and as such, loyal democrat voters in return for subsidising their existence ?...

[justplugit]

As long as they come here legally i have no problem, it's our own poor citizens that concern me.

The free handouts by the bleeding heart, vote wanting politicians, have kept our poor down with little or no hope.
These handout politicians have no clue what it's like to live in the inner city, let alone what really needs to be done to help.

They want the vote, period.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

depends....are they coming here for opportunity and the chance to work for a better life for themselves and their children

The ones that come here illegaly usually are here for just that reason....to work and support their families. Should they be entering the country legally......absolutely.

Originally Posted by scottw

or are they coming here to become generationally dependent on government programs and as such, loyal democrat voters in return for subsidising their existence ?...

These are usually the ones that are here Legally...and US Citizens....they are the ones that are lazy and s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g on the government teat.

These are 2 seperate problems and if they want to fix both of them they need to treat them that way....if they lump them together it will just go on and on and on and on............

[scottw]

this is beautiful!

https://www.safelinkwireless.com/Enr...blic/home.aspx

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

this is beautiful!

https://www.safelinkwireless.com/Enr...blic/home.aspx

Well of course. How are "income eligible" people going to make their drug deals without a cell phone?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

These are usually the ones that are here Legally...and US Citizens....they are the ones that are lazy and s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g on the government teat.

Yes, to a great extent, I agree with you. Although there are also the illegals that do come here for the handouts. But the legals who you speak of that suck on the big teat are the descendents of immigrants who came here for the original American dream of freedom to work for their quality of life. Their children, that they worked hard to educate, learned in our school systems and our mainstream media that they and other minorities were oppressed, and this oppression was the cause of poverty and all its ills. And the way to defeat that was to vote for those who would help rather than oppress. They learned about the compassion of liberalism, and the promise of the party that would eliminate poverty, not by the hard work of their parents, but by government fiat. By government largesse. They were seduced by that promise and helped to spread the message of that dream. And it became easier for their generation and their children, in times of dire need, to suck on the teat than to suck it up, and that dream expanded into the underclass nightmare of a generational underclass society constantly looking to the teat for survival and by that necessity, perpetually voting to sustain it.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

These are usually the ones that are here Legally...and US Citizens....they are the ones that are lazy and s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g on the government teat.

As is the major issue of the United States' Open-Door Policy on immigration.

What this country needs to do is restrict all immigration (and working Visas) to those people that will actually benefit society. This country needs to get out of the business of making everyone feel good, and back into the business of getting our heads above the water.

You have a Master's Degree and are already set up with a job? Welcome to America!

You're 35 years old, don't have a secondary education nor any technical training skills? Goodbye!

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

As is the major issue of the United States' Open-Door Policy on immigration.

What this country needs to do is restrict all immigration (and working Visas) to those people that will actually benefit society. This country needs to get out of the business of making everyone feel good, and back into the business of getting our heads above the water.

You have a Master's Degree and are already set up with a job? Welcome to America!

You're 35 years old, don't have a secondary education nor any technical training skills? Goodbye!

I'm 90% onboard with this.....But I don't feel they need to come here all trained and ready to go.....If they want to come here....willing to work for what they get I'm OK with that....If that means janitor by night and schooling during the day......so be it.

Just come here and plan on working for your dream.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I'm 90% onboard with this.....But I don't feel they need to come here all trained and ready to go.....If they want to come here....willing to work for what they get I'm OK with that....If that means janitor by night and schooling during the day......so be it.

Just come here and plan on working for your dream.

Schools are already over populated and prices for a BA or advanced decree are increasing at an exponential rate.

No immigrant janitor will be making enough money to put themselves through school. So, they stop attending school because they can't afford it, or petition for one of the dozens of programs that will pay to put them through school.

These are people you might dub as "potential contributors to society". As I tell my sales people, you can't run a business on potential customers.

This country is like one big Charity Foundation. Let's get the homeless veterans and homeless children that already live here taken care of first, before we open the door to more people needing handouts.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I'm 90% onboard with this.....But I don't feel they need to come here all trained and ready to go.....If they want to come here....willing to work for what they get I'm OK with that....If that means janitor by night and schooling during the day......so be it.

Just come here and plan on working for your dream.

I agree 100%. My girlfriend did it while raising 2 kids. It's called the American Dream and it's still there( for now) for those that are willing to work for it. No excuses

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Joe

How do you feel about the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of teeming shores, the homeless and the tempest-tossed?

If you're tired, get more sleep or take vitamins. If you're poor and able, get a better job or create your own. If you yearn to breathe free, blow your nose and learn to be independent--dependency is a sure road to loss of freedom. If you are a wretched refuse, you require quite a bit, how much you can do for yourself in that condition (what is a wretched refuse?) may be minimal--you may need some help, then, if you can ever recover from such a state, and if that state was caused by some power that reduced you to it, you will probably desire to be free of any power that can do it again, and you will probably cherish the freedom to resist it. Same for the homeless and tempest-tossed. The Statue of Liberty was given to us as gesture of our unique contribution to freedom and the individual's yearning to breathe that air. (That's just my twisted take on the gift--their was probably some yearning for Socialism in the giver--if so, send it back.)

My take on the overused phrase "the American Dream" is that the original American Dream was freedom. Somehow, that dream got debased to something like a house, a car, a chicken in every pot, and health care. Perhaps, freedom has become so taken for granted that we find it too burdensome to exercise the "eternal vigilance" required to keep it. The comforts that have ensued through freedom and hard work have become more valued than what has been required to gain those comforts.

I know, I know. . .the Statue of Liberty was a gift recognizing friendship between France and The U.S. But it has become a symbol of much more than that, the above is my personal symbolism, especially since that supposed friendship has so deteriorated.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by detbuch

My take on the overused phrase "the American Dream" is that the original American Dream was freedom. Somehow, that dream got debased to something like a house, a car, a chicken in every pot, and health care. Perhaps, freedom has become so taken for granted that we find it too burdensome to exercise the "eternal vigilance" required to keep it. The comforts that have ensued through freedom and hard work have become more valued than what has been required to gain those comforts.

Well said.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I said IF! When I said "if this is so, we have come to be in a bad way," I was referring to your views, not mine. I didn't express views about us.

It's also part of who we are. If someone behaves in a socialistic manner out of a genuine sense of charity or belief in equality does that make their intention bad? Like usual, this isn't a world of extremes.

I view some of us positively (the doers, creators, warriors, strivers, the free and independent minded, especially constitutional originalists), and I view some of us negatively--slackers, those who wait for help when they have the ability to help themselves, socialists, marxists.

What about the socialist/marxist creaters and doers? For example, a lot of good art and music certainly came out of mother Russia.

One could even argue that the "slacker" mentality in the US is a byproduct of the wealth from a free market society. Does that mean it's rooted in socialism? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

Your view that we are a product of history defines, concisely, the difference in our views--probably an essential difference between conservatives and liberals. My view is that history is a product of us.

This is relative to your particular reference frame. Generally speaking, most of us don't have influence beyond ourselves, our family and perhaps our job. I expect my influence on history to be somewhat contained, although I am working hard to prove otherwise.

The influence on history of the few in selected positions of power or more importantly the behavior of the mass has a much larger bearing on how history will be written.

I have noticed you tend to look for differences where as I tend to look for similarities. This would make sense as I usually operate on a spectrum where you seem to go towards extremes.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with ideology though, unless it's just validation that I'm a centrist and you're perhaps on the fringe.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

It's also part of who we are. If someone behaves in a socialistic manner out of a genuine sense of charity or belief in equality does that make their intention bad? Like usual, this isn't a world of extremes.

The intentions of socialists are good. When they are expressed in a personally charitable way, that is, helping others out of their own pocket or their own labor-- I don't consider that socialism. That's just the true milk of human kindness. I consider socialism to be a much more EXTREME form of goodness, in which out of the desire to eliminate the ills that befall mankind, the socialist COERCES some to redistribute their sustenance and redirect their labor for the benefit of others, to create an artificial, unsustainable equality--a collapse, if you will, of your spectrum into a dense black hole where there are no extremes, just the boring gray of an ant hill existence.

What about the socialist/marxist creaters and doers? For example, a lot of good art and music certainly came out of mother Russia.

The best art and music that came out of mother Russia was during its imperial, not communist, era. Marxist art is, to me, a blatant exaltation of the power of revolution of the masses. It makes godlike the proletarian who, in actuality, only serves an unimaginative and brutal ruling clique.

One could even argue that the "slacker" mentality in the US is a byproduct of the wealth from a free market society. Does that mean it's rooted in socialism? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

Slackers in a free market society don't have to be rooted in socialism. Never said that. I just have a negative view of them.

This is relative to your particular reference frame. Generally speaking, most of us don't have influence beyond ourselves, our family and perhaps our job. I expect my influence on history to be somewhat contained, although I am working hard to prove otherwise.

To view ourselves as a product of history is to see us as rather helpless--a PRODUCT predetermined by machinations beyond our control. This does fit the concept of the victim needing the intentional power of the history making Leviathan to protect and succor him.

I like what De Sousa says about what is uniquely American--here more than anywhere else, you have the freedom to make yourself what you wish. You are not trapped into a particular tradition or social class or occupation if you CHOOSE otherwise. And your INTENTION is not to influence history, but history will result from all our efforts (including yours, Spence). To the individualist, the capitalist, the conservative, history is the product. It is the record of our accomplishments, not the master that mashes us into a proletarian mold.

I have noticed you tend to look for differences where as I tend to look for similarities. This would make sense as I usually operate on a spectrum where you seem to go towards extremes.

I don't look for differences or similarities, I see them as they exist on the continuum of life. If you only LOOK for one, you miss the other. Does your spectrum only contain similarities? That seems rather extreme. It does conform to the socialistic, anti-individualistic view, though.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with ideology though, unless it's just validation that I'm a centrist and you're perhaps on the fringe.
-spence

Just what are you in the center of? Does quantum theory, or relativity theory have a center? Does the universe have a center? What is the center of your existence? Do you exist in the middle of some pre-determined historical warp? What is the center of the constant motion and evolution of life? Even more curious, what is the fringe? Is not every point in space and time the center? And at the same moment, is not every point the fringe? You are no more in the center than I, nor I anymore on the fringe than you.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

It's also part of who we are. If someone behaves in a socialistic manner out of a genuine sense of charity or belief in equality does that make their intention bad? charity involves donation of your own money not the confiscation of someone else's for your "charity"

What about the socialist/marxist creaters and doers? For example, a lot of good art and music certainly came out of mother Russia. yes, the propoganda art and the roaring anthems praising the STATE, those were great... and don't forget the starvation and slaughter by the socialist/marxist "creaters and doers"

One could even argue that the "slacker" mentality in the US is a byproduct of the wealth from a free market society. Does that mean it's rooted in socialism? Seems a bit contradictory to me. One could argue that the slacker mentality is a byproduct of decades of increasing government handouts which have destroyed the family unit and created huge swaths of dependent individuals that know only that they need government programs to continue their existence......this would be rooted in socialism....


I expect my influence on history to be somewhat contained, although I am working hard to prove otherwise. ummmmm...if you plan on influencing "history"...you might consider expanding you "influence" beyond the political section of a fishing website and away from Detbuch because he continually beeeotch slaps you



I'm a centrist...


-spence