Carbon Tax, timing is everything

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Then raise the fines and give them an grace period where they can reuse the fine $$ to improve the plant.

Problem is the energy lobby and their "regulation is evil" proponents in the GOP do everything to keep penalties low.

There are no solutions I'm aware of that won't ultimately pass increased energy costs to the consumer, that much is simple. They key is that we're already paying the higher costs in terms of health and environmental impact.

What I like about the Carbon Credit idea is that it's tied to behavior. Yes, it's not perfect but neither is what we have now. Making my energy more expensive with the benefit of a cleaner environment might just be a net zero situation that's more sustainable.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

What I like about the Carbon Credit idea is that it's tied to behavior. Yes, it's not perfect but neither is what we have now. Making my energy more expensive with the benefit of a cleaner environment might just be a net zero situation that's more sustainable.

That's my opinion on it as well. But, behavior will change either on the energy producer end or the user end. If because of the Carbon Credit a company decides it isn't going to change it's behavior and is going to forward the cost to the consumer, eventually the consumer will change their behavior and switch to renewable energy sources.

I refuse to accept the "Let's not do anything at all and *blank* (insert: corporations, the economy, consumers, lending companies, government) will fix itself" attitude that some people here feel will resolve all our problems.

This society has *reaction* as opposed to action attitude. What I mean is there is no foresight in this country. No one tries to avoid issues before they happen. People wait until the absolute worst case occurs and then want the government to respond and fix it right away. People only think about now and never about tomorrow.

[buckman]

Johnny, Who said don't do anything at all?

"Then raise the fines and give them an grace period where they can reuse the fine $$ to improve the plant. " this is what I said.

Using Carbon Credits as a form of taxation is a scam. That's what Obama's plan is. I think it's insane and will further hurt any chance at an economic recovery.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

That's my opinion on it as well. But, behavior will change either on the energy producer end or the user end. If because of the Carbon Credit a company decides it isn't going to change it's behavior and is going to forward the cost to the consumer, eventually the consumer will change their behavior and switch to renewable energy sources.

I refuse to accept the "Let's not do anything at all and *blank* (insert: corporations, the economy, consumers, lending companies, government) will fix itself" attitude that some people here feel will resolve all our problems.

This society has *reaction* as opposed to action attitude. What I mean is there is no foresight in this country. No one tries to avoid issues before they happen. People wait until the absolute worst case occurs and then want the government to respond and fix it right away. People only think about now and never about tomorrow.

Unfortunately, issues don't exist until they happen. We are constantly warned about consequences due to new behaviour, and there is usually disagreement about what will happen. Hasty action usually leads to worse problems than predicted consequences. No one knows and only the most prescient can predict how things will actually shake out. It would, seemingly, be wonderful if we could invent a prediction machine that produced a 90% or better success rate. Meanwhile, passionate arguments by those certain of their knowledge abound. Hasty "action" is, at best, hit and miss, but it is usually more destructive than helpful. Against all intuition, the most efficient response to new behavior is to let the competing elements work through the arising problems. It's slower than doing something right away, but more correct in its outcome and will come to the best solution more quickly as it will avoid false solutions that slow the process down.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Unfortunately, issues don't exist until they happen. We are constantly warned about consequences due to new behaviour, and there is usually disagreement about what will happen. Hasty action usually leads to worse problems than predicted consequences. No one knows and only the most prescient can predict how things will actually shake out. It would, seemingly, be wonderful if we could invent a prediction machine that produced a 90% or better success rate. Meanwhile, passionate arguments by those certain of their knowledge abound. Hasty "action" is, at best, hit and miss, but it is usually more destructive than helpful. Against all intuition, the most efficient response to new behavior is to let the competing elements work through the arising problems. It's slower than doing something right away, but more correct in its outcome and will come to the best solution more quickly as it will avoid false solutions that slow the process down.

I agree with this in it's entirety. However, I think that most of what the Dems. are doing is not kneejerk, but a concerted effort to enlarge the government, redistribute money and move towards a America "they" feel is better for us.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I agree with this in it's entirety. However, I think that most of what the Dems. are doing is not kneejerk, but a concerted effort to enlarge the government, redistribute money and move towards a America "they" feel is better for us.

Yes, because only when we have a Marxist economy will the worker really be empowered!

You know, when you get below the rhetoric there's really very little difference between how the Republicans and Democrats run the country when applied to the global spectrum. While I think Ralph Nader is a bit of a super-cook, on this point I do agree.

-spence