Carbon Tax, timing is everything

[buckman]

It's a scam John.
Your buying into it. Regulate it the way they have been regulating it. Give companies an incentive to reduce pollution. Here's an idea, A TAX BREAK . Why is it your all for giving more to the government?
.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

It's a scam John.
Your buying into it. Regulate it the way they have been regulating it. Give companies an incentive to reduce pollution. Here's an idea, A TAX BREAK . Why is it your all for giving more to the government?
.

They've already been offered tax breaks for performing R&D on renewable and clean energy. Most states offer quite generous incentives for corporations to invest in solar and wind generation, with little effect.

You show me empirical evidence other than a gut opinion as to why a Carbon Tax is a scam and how even with reports of it being successful in Europe, it will have no effect here.... then I'll believe you.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

They've already been offered tax breaks for performing R&D on renewable and clean energy. Most states offer quite generous incentives for corporations to invest in solar and wind generation, with little effect.

You show me empirical evidence other than a gut opinion as to why a Carbon Tax is a scam and how even with reports of it being successful in Europe, it will have no effect here.... then I'll believe you.

You say that tax incentives have had little effect. There is plenty of empirical evidence to proof that wrong.

This is what will happen. I pollute X amount and the government charges me X amount.I could spend the money and fix it but since they are hell bent on alternate energy sources and running my coal fired plant out of town, I figure I'll just pass that amount on to Johnny's electric bill. Obama get's his and Johnny gets screwed again.
So.......When does Johnny figure out it's a scam?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

You say that tax incentives have had little effect. There is plenty of empirical evidence to proof that wrong.

This is what will happen. I pollute X amount and the government charges me X amount.I could spend the money and fix it but since they are hell bent on alternate energy sources and running my coal fired plant out of town, I figure I'll just pass that amount on to Johnny's electric bill. Obama get's his and Johnny gets screwed again.
So.......When does Johnny figure out it's a scam?

That's perfectly fine by me. The more those dirty, polluting coal plants decide to forward the prices onto me, the more motivated I am going to be to put solar panels on my house. I have already told my girlfriend, that when we finally buy a house, it has to be cheap enough for us to afford the added additional costs of putting solar panels and solar water heating into place. At current energy prices and current solar technology, I will more than likely be looking at a 4-6 year break-even point. Then I start saving significant amounts of money - and that's not considering advances in technology (and the definite increase in energy prices) between now and then.

Companies that choose to continue on with how they have always done things will fail - automotive companies come time mind. It is only a matter of time before more stringent pollution limits are put onto companies like coal plants. Just like everything else in the world, the way we use energy is evolving past what was put in place during the Industrial Revolution. Coal is cheap now, but eventually if those companies don't learn from the automotive industry, they will see the same fate.

And I say "Let Them Fail."

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

You say that tax incentives have had little effect. There is plenty of empirical evidence to proof that wrong.

This is what will happen. I pollute X amount and the government charges me X amount.I could spend the money and fix it but since they are hell bent on alternate energy sources and running my coal fired plant out of town, I figure I'll just pass that amount on to Johnny's electric bill. Obama get's his and Johnny gets screwed again.
So.......When does Johnny figure out it's a scam?

Let's take the Brayton Point power plant as an example. The Government passes tighter environmental regulations, and instead of upgrading the plant to emit less methyl mercury, they just keep the plant going "as-is" and pay the fines which are next to nothing.

The costs are then never really passed on to the consumer in the form of higher energy prices.

It is passed onto my son via the quality of air he breathes and in the fish he eats.

Scam my ass, open your mind.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Let's take the Brayton Point power plant as an example. The Government passes tighter environmental regulations, and instead of upgrading the plant to emit less methyl mercury, they just keep the plant going "as-is" and pay the fines which are next to nothing.

The costs are then never really passed on to the consumer in the form of higher energy prices.

It is passed onto my son via the quality of air he breathes and in the fish he eats.

Scam my ass, open your mind.-spence

Then raise the fines and give them an grace period where they can reuse the fine $$ to improve the plant.

Actually the fines are paid by the consumer also.

I'm open to anything that works.
In the budget he is charging carbon credits which will raise the rates and then giving a large portion of that money to people that can't afford the higher cost. How's that going to help your son breath better?
Incentives work. I see it every day and I would be willing to bet you and everyone on here has mailed in a rebate on an Energy Star product or used the tax rebate to get a new, more efficient furnace for there home. See, it's working already.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Then raise the fines and give them an grace period where they can reuse the fine $$ to improve the plant.

Problem is the energy lobby and their "regulation is evil" proponents in the GOP do everything to keep penalties low.

There are no solutions I'm aware of that won't ultimately pass increased energy costs to the consumer, that much is simple. They key is that we're already paying the higher costs in terms of health and environmental impact.

What I like about the Carbon Credit idea is that it's tied to behavior. Yes, it's not perfect but neither is what we have now. Making my energy more expensive with the benefit of a cleaner environment might just be a net zero situation that's more sustainable.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

What I like about the Carbon Credit idea is that it's tied to behavior. Yes, it's not perfect but neither is what we have now. Making my energy more expensive with the benefit of a cleaner environment might just be a net zero situation that's more sustainable.

That's my opinion on it as well. But, behavior will change either on the energy producer end or the user end. If because of the Carbon Credit a company decides it isn't going to change it's behavior and is going to forward the cost to the consumer, eventually the consumer will change their behavior and switch to renewable energy sources.

I refuse to accept the "Let's not do anything at all and *blank* (insert: corporations, the economy, consumers, lending companies, government) will fix itself" attitude that some people here feel will resolve all our problems.

This society has *reaction* as opposed to action attitude. What I mean is there is no foresight in this country. No one tries to avoid issues before they happen. People wait until the absolute worst case occurs and then want the government to respond and fix it right away. People only think about now and never about tomorrow.