Its officially over

[RIJIMMY]

Lets get really wacky today...

Atilla the Hun, burned and massacared every tribe he came across, as a result Asia prospered and peace settled over the region, commerce grew and leaps were made in trade and knowledge sharing.

Rome conquered every country it wanted, forced all their customs and currency on the populace. As a result, peace, trade, technology, arts, literacy all flourished across the lands.

I'm missing history's success stories of militaries winning the "hearts and minds" of people?

[striperman36]

We all should stop fishing, because according to some people, it causes the fish great pain and offends those people that we would be so cruel to other inhabitors of this great world.

[JohnR]

Western culture has supposedly advanced a little from the wholesale raping and pillaging of what happened to those other (long gone) civilizations. Turning countries into glass parking lots is also not an acceptable option.

If you look where we have had the successes in Iraq and and where were the issues, the more successful times have come with a balanced application of necessary firepower and "Hearts & Minds". Take, Hold, & Build. Kill 'em all and let God sort them out hasn't worked. That is a reactionary practice that never works anymore - unless you are a dictator in the Third World. Or Sadam.

I don't think there is a need to go into how much was wrong at the start when they simply did not have enough troops to begin with and most of these problems might have been reduced or never really happened, not to mention the clusterbleep of the "CPA". But taking in context of what is happening now, what IS working is based on Heart & Minds, Respect, & Force.

When people that know what they are talking about like Col McMaster (now BG designate) and Gen Petraeus say that the way forward in Iraq (certainly at least the key component from the military side) is to win Hearts & Minds, I'm inclined to think they are on the right path and that taking a sniper shot at a Quran for target practice undermines that mission in a completely unneeded and effing stupid way.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Lets get really wacky today...

Atilla the Hun, burned and massacared every tribe he came across, as a result Asia prospered and peace settled over the region, commerce grew and leaps were made in trade and knowledge sharing.

Rome conquered every country it wanted, forced all their customs and currency on the populace. As a result, peace, trade, technology, arts, literacy all flourished across the lands.

I'm missing history's success stories of militaries winning the "hearts and minds" of people?

Viet Cong & the NVA

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

Viet Cong & the NVA

And Vietnam is now a prospering country, only proves my point.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

And Vietnam is now a prospering country, only proves my point.

What does this have to do with the fact that the Viet Congs hearts and minds campaign undermined US military policy efforts in that region during that time. It is a requisite ingredient in any successful insurgency/ guerrilla war.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

It is a requisite ingredient in any successful insurgency/ guerrilla war.

As well as any successful Counter Insurgency

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

What does this have to do with the fact that the Viet Congs hearts and minds campaign undermined US military policy efforts in that region during that time. It is a requisite ingredient in any successful insurgency/ guerrilla war.

I was referencing their brutal tactics which ultimately won. You think they won the hearts and minds of the people? I think they butchered them into submission.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I was referencing their brutal tactics which ultimately won. You think they won the hearts and minds of the people? I think they butchered them into submission.

Much butchering did indeed occur, on both sides by all parties. However, the VC were able and did attack the US embassy long before Saigon fell. You think they did that because of a butchered civilian population. No, because they could attack anywhere in the country with impunity through a highly organized subterrenean subversion. Subversion only possible with the cooperation of a large number of South Vietnamese communist sympathizers and nationalist.