Ukraine

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Abortion opponents, some of whom are conservative, think that other people are required to conform to their beliefs.
Some of them also believe that birth control is an abortifacient - by preventing the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall, that's an abortion.
The Catholic Church has had various edicts from various Popes regarding abortion so apparently there’s either not really any substance to papal infallibility or Martin Luther was correct.
Do Catholics still believe that freedom from God's punishment for sin can be purchased with money, perhaps if they got $50 per abortion they’d mind their own business
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I'm going to try and talk to you like an adult here, let's see how it goes...

"Abortion opponents, some of whom are conservative, think that other people are required to conform to their beliefs."

Wrong.

Every single criminal law on the books, is an attempt by society (not just anti abortion people) to get others to comply with rules of conduct. Abortion is not unique in this regard, in any way. Liberals just frame it this way, because that's a lot easier for them, than honestly debating what my side is saying.

Pete, are you OK with laws which saw that women can not hurt someone else?

I assume you are. And on that point, you and I agree.

The only topic on which we disagree (therefore, the only issue that actually matters here) is whether or not the unborn baby represents "someone else".

There are all kinds of laws that limit what women can do with their bodies. They can't inject heroin, female teachers cannot be involved with male students, etc...Yet you are OK with those laws. You are OK with all kinds of laws which limit the choices women can make.

Because you agree that women can make whatever choices they want, as long as they don't harm someone else.

So the debate has absolutely nothing to do with women's rights, or choice, or any of that other nonsense...it has everything to do with whether or not the baby is "someone else".

That's literally all that matters.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I'm going to try and talk to you like an adult here, let's see how it goes...

"Abortion opponents, some of whom are conservative, think that other people are required to conform to their beliefs."

Wrong.

Every single criminal law on the books, is an attempt by society (not just anti abortion people) to get others to comply with rules of conduct. Abortion is not unique in this regard, in any way. Liberals just frame it this way, because that's a lot easier for them, than honestly debating what my side is saying.

Pete, are you OK with laws which saw that women can not hurt someone else?

I assume you are. And on that point, you and I agree.

The only topic on which we disagree (therefore, the only issue that actually matters here) is whether or not the unborn baby represents "someone else".

There are all kinds of laws that limit what women can do with their bodies. They can't inject heroin, female teachers cannot be involved with male students, etc...Yet you are OK with those laws. You are OK with all kinds of laws which limit the choices women can make.

Because you agree that women can make whatever choices they want, as long as they don't harm someone else.

So the debate has absolutely nothing to do with women's rights, or choice, or any of that other nonsense...it has everything to do with whether or not the baby is "someone else".

That's literally all that matters.

Your belief, which you want to impose on everyone else is that life begins s at some artificial point prior to birth.
The debate has everything to do with your desire to require other people to conform to your belief and in doing so taking away their right to their own beliefs.

I'm old enough to remember discussions about JFK being a papist and concern about Catholics gaining power and imposing their beliefs on the rest of Americans. I'm beginning see their concerns come true with 7 Catholic Justices.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Your belief, which you want to impose on everyone else is that life begins s at some artificial point prior to birth.
The debate has everything to do with your desire to require other people to conform to your belief and in doing so taking away their right to their own beliefs.

I'm old enough to remember discussions about JFK being a papist and concern about Catholics gaining power and imposing their beliefs on the rest of Americans. I'm beginning see their concerns come true with 7 Catholic Justices.

again, using your logic, every single criminal law then, is imposing ones belief
into another.

saying life begins at conception isn’t arbitrary. That’s the beginning.

saying life begins at any other point is arbitrary. because the baby is no different from one moment to the next. there’s only one moment when something spectacular happens, when something gets created that wasn’t there before. after that it’s a long, slow, continuous process.

again, every single criminal
law law limits choices. nothing unique about abortion in that regard.
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

again, using your logic, every single criminal law then, is imposing ones belief
into another.

saying life begins at conception isn’t arbitrary. That’s the beginning.

saying life begins at any other point is arbitrary. because the baby is no different from one moment to the next. there’s only one moment when something spectacular happens, when something gets created that wasn’t there before. after that it’s a long, slow, continuous process.

again, every single criminal
law law limits choices. nothing unique about abortion in that regard.
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No, my belief and that of many other Americans is that life does not begin at conception.

I believe that life begins at birth.
You don’t believe that and think that everyone must believe what you do.
Most Americans don’t believe they have the right to make that decision for others, even if they would not make that choice themselves.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I believe that life begins at birth.

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so you didn't consider you children to be life, prior to their birth?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

so you didn't consider you children to be life, prior to their birth?

Not yet
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Not yet
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have you ever seen a sonogram or felt a kick?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Not yet
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So if you and your wife were expecting, Nursery is all painted, just had the baby shower with family and friends. And then Your wife gets taken out by a drunk driver, you lose both her and the baby.

You're telling me you would only mourn the loss of your wife, because the baby was never really here?

I'm calling on that.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

No, my belief and that of many other Americans is that life does not begin at conception.

I believe that life begins at birth.
You don’t believe that and think that everyone must believe what you do.
Most Americans don’t believe they have the right to make that decision for others, even if they would not make that choice themselves.
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our laws against child rape, are an example of imposing our will, on those who are on with child rape.

if you want to say that many more people support abortion than support child rape, of course you’re right.

But every single law limits choices and imposes will. So it’s not a valid argument, it makes no legitimate point.

When do you say life begins?
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

our laws against child rape, are an example of imposing our will, on those who are on with child rape.

if you want to say that many more people support abortion than support child rape, of course you’re right.

But every single law limits choices and imposes will. So it’s not a valid argument, it makes no legitimate point.

When do you say life begins?
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Now you’re equating rape with abortion?

Reading is not your strong point
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I believe that life begins at birth.

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Please tell us, why that belief is less arbitrary than my belief that it begins at conception?

You believe abortion is OK then, even in the 9th month. Lots of folks disagree with that.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Your belief, which you want to impose on everyone else is that life begins s at some artificial point prior to birth.

do you have children?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

do you have children?

Likely more than you
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