Ukraine

[Pete F.]

More baloney from you and Trump

Trump, when he claims he got $130 billion extra, is really talking about indirect funding. Since 2006, each NATO member has had a guideline of spending at least 2 percent of gross domestic product on defense spending. At a 2014 summit, responding to Russian aggression in Ukraine, NATO members pledged to meet that guideline by 2024.
Note the date — that was three years before Trump became president, and a year before he even announced he was running for president. Yet he persistently claims credit for actions that were underway before he became president — and consistently misleads about where NATO funding was headed before he became president.

Trump’s foreign policy sought to do much of what Putin wants to achieve, including intimidating Ukraine by withholding vital defensive weapons.

Putin wanted to undermine the NATO alliance, and Trump undermined the NATO alliance. Putin wanted to weaken the E.U., and Trump did everything he could to damage the E.U. Putin wanted to weaken the U.S. political system, and Trump was constantly trying to weaken the U.S. political system.

If Trump had been re-elected, Russia would have become a member of the G8, the sanctions would have ended and Trump would have paved the way for Putin’s seizure of Ukraine
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Trump would have paved the way for Putin’s seizure of Ukraine

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dumbest thing written anywhere today

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

More baloney from you and Trump

What baloney? You said "JUST imagine if trump were still president, actually you don’t have to, just read his statements"

Which you followed by selecting parts of his statements out of full context and true meaning. I did, as you suggested, read his FULL statements, then corrected your baloney.

Trump, when he claims he got $130 billion extra, is really talking about indirect funding. Since 2006, each NATO member has had a guideline of spending at least 2 percent of gross domestic product on defense spending. At a 2014 summit, responding to Russian aggression in Ukraine, NATO members pledged to meet that guideline by 2024.
Note the date — that was three years before Trump became president, and a year before he even announced he was running for president. Yet he persistently claims credit for actions that were underway before he became president — and consistently misleads about where NATO funding was headed before he became president.

"Were underway? "was headed" Russia was going to wait until 2024? Eight countries had already achieved that goal. The U.S. was spending beyond that goal. The head of NATO praised Trump for helping to speed up the process. We're still almost 3 years away from 2024 and Russia has again done what was the reason for pledging the money.


Trump’s foreign policy sought to do much of what Putin wants to achieve, including intimidating Ukraine by withholding vital defensive weapons.

Trump's foreign policy did not "seek to do what Putin wants. It even countered Putin in some regards. Including the damage to Russias profits from oil with making us a net exporter of oil thus lowering the world price for it.

Ukraine got the vital defensive weapons. And now NATO members are ponying up more money to send Ukraine more weapons and other help. It seems like NATO needed a wake up call to action and spending well before 2024.

Putin wanted to undermine the NATO alliance, and Trump undermined the NATO alliance.

Trump did not undermine the alliance. And there was already grumbling within the alliance which was not putting up as strong a face to Russia as it should.

Putin wanted to weaken the E.U., and Trump did everything he could to damage the E.U.

Trump did not, as you say, do everything he could do to damage the E.U. And the E.U. members had forever conflicted and bickered and "damaged" the efficacy of the EU.

Putin wanted to weaken the U.S. political system, and Trump was constantly trying to weaken the U.S. political system.

Trump was not trying to weaken the U.S. political system. And the Progressives have a hundred year history of weakening the founded system and transforming it into an authoritarian system that is totally turningthe system on its head.

If Trump had been re-elected, Russia would have become a member of the G8, the sanctions would have ended and Trump would have paved the way for Putin’s seizure of Ukraine

The President doesn't have the authority to unilaterally decide who will be accepted into the intergovernmental forum. And, obviously, Putin didn't need being a member of the G8 to "pave his way."

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

The President doesn't have the authority to unilaterally decide who will be accepted into the intergovernmental forum. And, obviously, Putin didn't need being a member of the G8 to "pave his way."

So you would really argue that the West would have produced this level of organized response if Trump was in office and belittling allies, praising Putin, & denigrating international institutions-after extorting Zelensky and falsely claiming Ukraine interfered against him?
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

So you would really argue that the West would have produced this level of organized response if Trump was in office and belittling allies, praising Putin, & denigrating international institutions-after extorting Zelensky and falsely claiming Ukraine interfered against him?
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if that’s all so obvious, why didn’t Putin move when Trump was in office? you’re saying Putin would have been far better off invading then, so why didn’t he?

Have fun getting out of that one.
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

if that’s all so obvious, why didn’t Putin move when Trump was in office? you’re saying Putin would have been far better off invading then, so why didn’t he?

Have fun getting out of that one.
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Putin’s goal in 2020 just like in 2016 was to get Trump elected.
I’m sure if he had been re-elected and it came out that Putin had waited till after the election, you would be claiming “well, Obama did it”
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Putin’s goal in 2020 just like in 2016 was to get Trump elected.
I’m sure if he had been re-elected and it came out that Putin had waited till after the election, you would be claiming “well, Obama did it”
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you’re saying it was more important for Putin to make Trump look good, than to invade at the optimal time.

Makes sense.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

So you would really argue that the West would have produced this level of organized response if Trump was in office and belittling allies, praising Putin, & denigrating international institutions-after extorting Zelensky and falsely claiming Ukraine interfered against him?

Trump's so-called "belittling allies" was to a great extent pointing out that they needed a higher level of response to their own security. He did not see the need to spend so much of our resources to protect them if they did not do so themselves. We were spending tons of money and resources world-wide, Europe, Asia, the Middle East, south of our border, for our security and that of the rest of the world. Trump wanted others to pull some more of that weight. No doubt, that was not a popular message to those who would rather we ease their burden.

So now, Europe understands that he was right. Of course, they wouldn't put it that way.

And Trump's so-called praise of Putin was carefully diplomatic, as was his "praise of Xi and the "little rocket man." But he was also very tough on them. He was tougher on Putin than his predecessor was. He was attacking China's economy and putting pressure on NK.

[Pete F.]

Trump was pursuing a deal for his Moscow tower through his campaign and even into his first months in office…and lied to the public about it. Putin knew Trump had balls because he was holding him by them
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[PaulS]

How come no word about the Turkish drones the UKR has? Wonder if they have been ineffective?

[Pete F.]

Sure, tankie
I wonder if it occurs to Trump how useless he is becoming to Putin & his oligarchs now that there’s no more money flowing into USA to launder?
Given that no US, UK or EU bank is willing to lend to Trump Co, and Russia’s banks now appear off limits, that leaves only the Saudi’s to bail Trump out on the millions of loans coming due. Will they?
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[nightfighter]

PETE, THIS IS THE UKRAINE THREAD

Take your Trump hate and go elsewhere, or that thread.

The fact that Switzerland has broken with the past, and for the first time, frozen accounts, in line with EU sanctions is a huge development.

[Got Stripers]

Scary that now Putin is really in a bad position and the influx of supplies and troops seems to indicate a renewed commitment to take the capital city. I certainly hope all the new sanctions and arms aid help them hold Russia a bay long enough for the impact in Russia to start to make him think twice about going further.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Scary that now Putin is really in a bad position and the influx of supplies and troops seems to indicate a renewed commitment to take the capital city. I certainly hope all the new sanctions and arms aid help them hold Russia a bay long enough for the impact in Russia to start to make him think twice about going further.

agreed 100%.

i just worry that Putin is crazy and capable of anything if he senses his back is against the wall.
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[Nebe]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

PETE, THIS IS THE UKRAINE THREAD

Take your Trump hate and go elsewhere, or that thread.

The fact that Switzerland has broken with the past, and for the first time, frozen accounts, in line with EU sanctions is a huge development.

Never in my lifetime would i think that the Swiss would do that. Bravo to them.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Never in my lifetime would i think that the Swiss would do that. Bravo to them.

and i’ve seen congressional republicans say confidently that the global sanctions will clobber russia

seems like sanctions never do what we hope they’ll do, usually they pulverize the innocent citizens and don’t effect the leaders much who are wealthy regardless. would be nice if these sanctions hurt Putin.

scary stuff.
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by PaulS

How come no word about the Turkish drones the UKR has? Wonder if they have been ineffective?

Extremely effective. They need more of these than anything.

Originally Posted by nightfighter

PETE, THIS IS THE UKRAINE THREAD

Take your Trump hate and go elsewhere, or that thread.

The fact that Switzerland has broken with the past, and for the first time, frozen accounts, in line with EU sanctions is a huge development.

^^^^ This

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Scary that now Putin is really in a bad position and the influx of supplies and troops seems to indicate a renewed commitment to take the capital city. I certainly hope all the new sanctions and arms aid help them hold Russia a bay long enough for the impact in Russia to start to make him think twice about going further.

I hope he does not retaliate or escalate. There is still a ton of #^&#^&#^&#^& he can do. Make sure you keep your heating tanks and gas tanks full, and have some cash when the ATM's don't work.

And for all of the No Fly Zone talk, enforcing it starts WWIII

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

and i’ve seen congressional republicans say confidently that the global sanctions will clobber russia

seems like sanctions never do what we hope they’ll do, usually they pulverize the innocent citizens and don’t effect the leaders much who are wealthy regardless. would be nice if these sanctions hurt Putin.

scary stuff.
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Unfortunately the only way the sanctions work is if they hit the Russian people, Putin owns the oligarchs, he gave them control of the means of production and has the upper hand. They can’t and won’t revolt.
When all the “peasants” are mad, no one can protect you.
A little Russian history would show you that.
Of course, if you think the Russians were better off with the Tsar’s benevolent rule…..you probably think Putin’s a good guy.
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[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

PETE, THIS IS THE UKRAINE THREAD

Take your Trump hate and go elsewhere, or that thread.

The fact that Switzerland has broken with the past, and for the first time, frozen accounts, in line with EU sanctions is a huge development.

Pete is the CNN of S-B
Trump hate 24-7-365 and if you don’t agree with him you’re a Racist
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

PETE, THIS IS THE UKRAINE THREAD

Take your Trump hate and go elsewhere, or that thread.

The fact that Switzerland has broken with the past, and for the first time, frozen accounts, in line with EU sanctions is a huge development.

I don’t hate him, I see him for what he is and has always been.

You can watch the clips of him and his enablers being used by Russian State TV against Ukraine, great job

https://twitter.com/projectlincoln/s...126618626?s=21
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[Got Stripers]

40 mile covey coming I hope they received some more munitions they are goin* to need them.

[wdmso]

Ukraine invasion: Videos show locals confronting Russian forces

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60558621



The best one is. the women trying to give the Russian Soldier Sunflower seeds She says so when they die they'll Grow

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Ukraine invasion: Videos show locals confronting Russian forces

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60558621



The best one is. the women trying to give the Russian Soldier Sunflower seeds She says so when they die they'll Grow

people will be talking about her for 100 years.
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[Pete F.]

So Putin’s already sent Thermobarics into Kharkiv, probably into Kyiv tonight
Why would anyone think that he will not do that he has done in Aleppo, Chechnya and Grosyna.
If you think he’ll stop there, you’re not a history student.
There will be another former part of the Soviet empire that is next to fall into line.
So we can wait or step up now.
The difference might be a year, good luck with waiting
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

So Putin’s already sent Thermobarics into Kharkiv, probably into Kyiv tonight
Why would anyone think that he will not do that he has done in Aleppo, Chechnya and Grosyna.
If you think he’ll stop there, you’re not a history student.
There will be another former part of the Soviet empire that is next to fall into line.
So we can wait or step up now.
The difference might be a year, good luck with waiting
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didn't biden say "give it a month"?

[scottw]

Kamala explains things.....soooo...Ukraine is a country....next to another country...that is a bigger country

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

John Bolton : “The fact is that [Trump] barely knew where Ukraine was. He once asked John Kelly, his second chief of staff, if Finland were a part of Russia. It’s just not accurate to say that Trump's behavior somehow deterred the Russians.”
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Not everything Bolton has said is agreed by many to be "The fact." And "barely" knowing is not a factual description of either knowledge or ignorance. It's a rhetorical trick to falsely impute ignorance. Nor does Bolton tell us the context of Trump asking the question about Finland. Trump very often is being sarcastic. And saying that it's "not accurate" to say something is a weaselly way of trying to imply that it's not true.

In any event, whether Trump "barely" knew where Ukraine was or if he was not certain if Finland was a part of Russia (which it once was part of the Russian empire), or not, do not mean that he had no impact on deterring Putin.

Of course, you do like to resort to "close enough" (not really) insinuations.

[Got Stripers]

They would have to step out of character and that’s not happening.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

They would have to step out of character and that’s not happening.

you’re in the “they”, hate to tell you. you do it too.

there’s more to civility than expecting it from others. you have to show it too.

really something, for you and paul to complain about.


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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

you’re in the “they”, hate to tell you. you do it too.


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racist, traitor etc....=OK....ignoramus=beyond the pale