The Corrosion of Conservatism

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

You just made my point, you have no evidence, just listened to Faux and therefore it is true.
If what you claim is true and immigrants are a drain on society, America would have been getting worse and worse since the Pilgrims arrived. In the eyes of the Native Americans you would be correct.

The same was said about the Italians, the Irish, the Polish, the Asians and all the other groups that came here. It was not true then and is not now.

I do have evidence, I don't have data. Unskilled immigrants are obviously far more likely to be on welfare because they are unskilled and uneducated. They have children who must go to school, which even liberals know is expensive. And many don't pay income taxes.

This isn't limited to Mexican immigrants, never said it was. I happily concede that European immigrants are also a big financial drain. You have a real habit of "responding" to things that no one has ever said.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I do have evidence, I don't have data. Unskilled immigrants are obviously far more likely to be on welfare because they are unskilled and uneducated. They have children who must go to school, which even liberals know is expensive. And many don't pay income taxes.

This isn't limited to Mexican immigrants, never said it was. I happily concede that European immigrants are also a big financial drain. You have a real habit of "responding" to things that no one has ever said.

Anecdotal evidence is worth as much as fishing reports
I guess you missed the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act negotiated by Clinton and Gingrich in 1997
A provision of PRWORA made immigrants entering the United States ineligible for federal welfare funds for five years after arriving in the United States.
Illegal immigrants in 2015 paid 23.6 Billion in income taxes and 9 Billion in Social Security that they can never collect, at least that's what the IRS says. Quite a drain
Did you know, Immigrants start roughly half of the new businesses in the US
Here's a few of the big ones for you
Tesla
Google
Yahoo
Chobani
Panda Express

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Did you know, Immigrants start roughly half of the new businesses in the US
Here's a few of the big ones for you
Tesla
Google
Yahoo
Chobani
Panda Express

How many of these big ones were started by illegal immigrants? Selective, legal immigration, as needed, as they have in Canada and the rest of the world is what Jim would probably be in favor of.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

How many of these big ones were started by illegal immigrants? Selective, legal immigration, as needed, as they have in Canada and the rest of the world is what Jim would probably be in favor of.

Sure. And I wouldn't only support letting in people who can significantly help the economy.. I'm all for letting in a certain number of people who will struggle, but who want a shot at a better life. But there are limits to how many of those we can let in, and the reason we need limits, is that it's a real burden on the rest of us.

I'm all for letting in a reasonable number of poor and downtrodden. That's a big part of what makes us who we are.

The family who runs the convenience store near my house came from Liberia, maybe one of the 5 worst countries in the history of the planet, with nothing. They worked 80 hours a week in that store, then they qualified for a federal loan to buy it, at which point they worked 90 hours a week in the store. They have 2 kids who went to college for free, one I studying engineering, the other studying medicine. That's the idea, right there, that's the dream.

It's worth noting that the father, who I've gotten to know over the years, tells me that when he watches MSNBC and CNN, he cannot believe that they are talking about the same country that gave his family this chance. He doesn't understand how people can say that only the rich get ahead, and that only white people get ahead.

He also says, and BOY is this a deep statement, that his black kids were better off being born in Africa and then coming here, than they'd be if they were born here but poor. Because if they were born here, there's a great chance they'd be sucked into the victim mentality. All they see, literally all they see, is opportunity. I love going in there every Sunday, filling up my truck, and buying the paper and a snack and asking him about his week. HE should have a show on MSNBC, not Al Sharpton.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

so when millions of penniless, unskilled, uneducated immigrants come here, and many aren’t paying income taxes, yet we have to help them with shelter, food, medical care, we have to provide police and fire protection, and we have to educate their children, you aren’t convinced that’s not a drain on our finances? You can’t be convinced of what you refuse to believe, I guess.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Originally Posted by detbuch

How many of these big ones were started by illegal immigrants? Selective, legal immigration, as needed, as they have in Canada and the rest of the world is what Jim would probably be in favor of.

Get Trump to consider one, he said in June he would not sign a bipartisan bill. Do I need to link the tweet for you? Both parties were working to come up with a bill they could pass.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Anecdotal evidence is worth as much as fishing reports
I guess you missed the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act negotiated by Clinton and Gingrich in 1997
A provision of PRWORA made immigrants entering the United States ineligible for federal welfare funds for five years after arriving in the United States.
Illegal immigrants in 2015 paid 23.6 Billion in income taxes and 9 Billion in Social Security that they can never collect, at least that's what the IRS says. Quite a drain
Did you know, Immigrants start roughly half of the new businesses in the US
Here's a few of the big ones for you
Tesla
Google
Yahoo
Chobani
Panda Express

Again, I cannot imagine what point you are trying to make, since no sane person claims that immigrants sit around and do nothing. Of course, many contribute something. Some contribute a ton. The question is, as a group, do they pay their own way? Their answer, of course, is no. Because for every Elan Musk, there are multiple families on welfare, and on Medicaid, with kids in public school, who cost a fortune.

I'm not arguing against immigration, I'm happy to pay taxes to help out law abiding immigrants. The point I am making, which you can't seem to grasp, is that immigration as a whole I snot a source of surplus for us, it's a big financial strain.

The links you posted above talked about the benefits of immigration., They didn't mention the costs - welfare, Medicaid, public housing, and especially, educating their kids. All of that is very expensive.

Nothing you have said on this issue, nothing, even comes close to responding to what I'm saying. I concede there are immigrants who are a bargain for us. But as a group? Very expensive.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Again, I cannot imagine what point you are trying to make

I think Panda Express played for the Red Sox briefly

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Again, I cannot imagine what point you are trying to make, since no sane person claims that immigrants sit around and do nothing. Of course, many contribute something. Some contribute a ton. The question is, as a group, do they pay their own way? Their answer, of course, is no. Because for every Elan Musk, there are multiple families on welfare, and on Medicaid, with kids in public school, who cost a fortune.
How much of your public school tuition bill do you fund? In CT, I think it's 16K a year. How many kids do you have?

I'm not arguing against immigration, I'm happy to pay taxes to help out law abiding immigrants. The point I am making, which you can't seem to grasp, is that immigration as a whole I snot a source of surplus for us, it's a big financial strain.

The links you posted above talked about the benefits of immigration., They didn't mention the costs - welfare, Medicaid, public housing, and especially, educating their kids. All of that is very expensive.

Nothing you have said on this issue, nothing, even comes close to responding to what I'm saying. I concede there are immigrants who are a bargain for us. But as a group? Very expensive.

Are you combining legal and illegal immigration?
The Wharton model states pretty clearly what the costs and benefits are, all you have to do is read it.
I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect, if you are talking about legal immigrants.
Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund.

If you want to cite facts with sources that's fine but to just say You know is a waste of time.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Are you combining legal and illegal immigration?
The Wharton model states pretty clearly what the costs and benefits are, all you have to do is read it.
I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect, if you are talking about legal immigrants.
Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund.

If you want to cite facts with sources that's fine but to just say You know is a waste of time.

I'm in favor or legal immigration. I think that penniless, unskilled immigrants, whether they come legally or illegally, are a huge drain.

"How much of your public school tuition bill do you fund? In CT, I think it's 16K a year. How many kids do you have?"

I have 3 kids in public school, costs my town about 39k a year. I pay about 10k a year to my town in property taxes on my house, cars, and camper. So right now, I'm a drain. But we lived here, paying taxes, for many years before we had kids, and will be here hopefully for many years after, so in the end, I'll pay my own way. But illegals, and many legal immigrants who don't pay as much as me in taxes, will never cover their own bill. That's what the math is. As I've said, I'm happy to pay my share to help those who can't afford to pay their own share. But it's utter nonsense to claim that most immigrants, especially illegals, will pay their own way.

"Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund."

True. But having more illegal hispanic immigrants, who pay less taxes and have more children, makes it a bigger drain, not less of a drain.

"I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect"

So FL and CA are seeing a windfall, not a drain on their economy, from illegal immigration. Gotcha.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I'm in favor or legal immigration. I think that penniless, unskilled immigrants, whether they come legally or illegally, are a huge drain.

"How much of your public school tuition bill do you fund? In CT, I think it's 16K a year. How many kids do you have?"

I have 3 kids in public school, costs my town about 39k a year. I pay about 10k a year to my town in property taxes on my house, cars, and camper. So right now, I'm a drain. But we lived here, paying taxes, for many years before we had kids, and will be here hopefully for many years after, so in the end, I'll pay my own way. But illegals, and many legal immigrants who don't pay as much as me in taxes, will never cover their own bill. That's what the math is. As I've said, I'm happy to pay my share to help those who can't afford to pay their own share. But it's utter nonsense to claim that most immigrants, especially illegals, will pay their own way.

"Few parents actually pay the cost of public education for their children, it is a cost that we as a society choose to fund."

True. But having more illegal hispanic immigrants, who pay less taxes and have more children, makes it a bigger drain, not less of a drain.

"I grasp what you are claiming but your argument is incorrect"

So FL and CA are seeing a windfall, not a drain on their economy, from illegal immigration. Gotcha.

I don't see CA complaining, do you?
Florida is going to need all the labor it can get to rebuild, they might take more cheap labor
Look at illegal immigration prior to 9/11 and after, our enforcement changed patterns radically and basically made it so they had to stay because of the cost of sneaking in as opposed to walking across, back for a while and across again. I had Canadian drywall guys doing it for years, no issues.