hey....keep your religion

[rphud]

so the long version is

"Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The phrase has since been repeatedly used by the Supreme Court of the United States.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to a January 1, 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper.

and the documents part is

The Declaration of Independence, the signing of which we commemorate July 4th, alone has five references to God—two in the first paragraph, one in the middle, and two in the last.

“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

The third reference to God is the word “creator” found in the second paragraph. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Creator with the capital "C")

“We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown…”

“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”

[scottw]

Originally Posted by rphud

so the long version is

”

so what you are saying is that none of your 'quotes' are found in any of our founding documents or laws

"Separation of church and state" is a phrase used by "some" to restate what "they" believe, expressing "their" understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause (you need to read what Jefferson actually wrote and why he wrote it)....

God, Creator, Nature's god, Gaia


I'm just pointing out that stating "it's ............" when it's really not, is like stating "........","it's in the Constitution"..when it's really not.....or..."doing God's work" was akin to saying you were working for the people? ....when it's really not

[rphud]

said quotes can be taken as the common language of the day I suppose.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by rphud

said quotes can be taken as the common language of the day I suppose.

what's wrong with the actual wording in the actual documents?.....it's pretty clear and simple wording.....written so even someone with an 18th century education could understand?

doesn't it seem odd, when discussing the first 10 simple words of our 1st Amendment, to refer to some quote or phrase that no one really knows the origin of ?

[rphud]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nothing wrong with these words, then or now. Seems very straight forward to me. Interpretations by many courts and individuals since then, well that can be very different story.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by rphud

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nothing wrong with these words, then or now. Seems very straight forward to me. Interpretations by many courts and individuals since then, well that can be very different story.

right...so how do you get from those simple and straightforward words to "separation of church and state" ....or "Let's keep religion out of politics. It's in the constitution."

you mentioned the Supreme Court..do you know that in 1958, in a case called Baer v. Kolmorgen, one of the judges grew so tired of hearing the phrase that he wrote a dissent warning that if the court did not stop repeating the phrase "separation of church and state," people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution?

this was what he said...he agrees with you on the language of the constitution

"Much has been written in recent years concerning Thomas Jefferson's reference in 1802 to "a wall of separation between church and State." It is upon that "wall" that plaintiffs seek to build their case. Jefferson's figure of speech has received so much attention that one would almost think at times that it is to be found somewhere in our Constitution. Courts and authors have devoted numerous pages to its interpretation. This court has no intention of engaging in a dispute among
[14 Misc.2d 1020]
historians as to the meaning of a metaphor. The only language which we are called upon to interpret and apply is the plain language quoted above from the Federal and State Constitutions."

the problem is that the "let's keep religion out of politics crowd" would like very much to exclude folks with religious beliefs from influencing politics, government or government policy on the basis of those beliefs because they happen to disagree, we see it all the time.....that is how they interpret "separation of church and state" which they have supplanted for the simple and straightforward words you provided above. There is an enormous difference between limiting Congress from making laws regarding an establishment of religion and guaranteeing the free exercise of ....and "separation" of the two where you must leave your religion at the door when you enter the political arena or politics(at least for one half of the political spectrum) as Spence pointed out...

[rphud]

To my reading the specific language of the constitution protects religions from the government and says nothing about "protecting" the government from religion or the influence of religious beliefs.

Most days I long for "The only language which we are called upon to interpret and apply is the plain language quoted above from the Federal and State Constitutions."