GAZA

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It is extremely misleading to say Israel has accomplished *anything at all* on their own. An average of $3 billion per year in aid to them since 1985, most of which is military and technology. Almost $80 billion over the course of 27 years. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Also, to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. As I posted earlier, Obama just announced we're 'gifting' another $70million to Israel for their missile defense shield.

In the face of $16 trillion in debt and a trillion dollar deficit, I am completely intolerant of the billions of dollars we are shipping out of this country for completely lost causes - that includes Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa and Israel.

"It is extremely misleading to say Israel has accomplished *anything at all* on their own."

I don't limit my consideration to economic aid, although one cannot ignore it, either.

"Almost $80 billion over the course of 27 years"

It's a lot of money in terms of absolute dollars. As a percentage of our budget, it's not even a rounding error. And many, many Americans feel that Israel deserves that aid. Maybe you should read about what happened to the Jews in WWII? They fought like hell to get their country, and they fight like hell every day, to keep it. Compare that to what goes in in any urban city in CT or MA, where the residents feel no sense of obligation or ownership. None.

"to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. "

If you only look at money, you have a point. If you look at standing by an ally in public, I have a point. He said, in one of those moments when he didn't know the camera was on im, he lamented about Netanyahu "I have to deal with him every day", to another world leader, can't remember who it was.

"I am completely intolerant of the billions of dollars we are shipping out of this country"

One can make a compelling case about that...speaking for me, I'd rather give it to Israel than to Planned Parenthood or to ACORN.

"lost causes - that includes Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa and Israel"

Bush saved more than one million lives in Africa, with his massive AIDS relief project called EPFAR (for which, in a fair world, they re-name the Nobel Peace Prize after him). Generations and generations of kids will be born, thanks to us. Not a lost cause in my book.

Johnny, we are so lucky to be born here. Someday, you might find yourself in a situation where you really need someone else's help. If that ever happens, I hope you find someone who's not as seemingly self-centered as you appear to be.

In my opinion, the strong have a responsibility to help the weak. Many people would passionately disagree with that.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Almost $80 billion over the course of 27 years"

It's a lot of money in terms of absolute dollars. As a percentage of our budget, it's not even a rounding error. And many, many Americans feel that Israel deserves that aid. Maybe you should read about what happened to the Jews in WWII? They fought like hell to get their country, and they fight like hell every day, to keep it. Compare that to what goes in in any urban city in CT or MA, where the residents feel no sense of obligation or ownership. None.

"to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. "

If you only look at money, you have a point. If you look at standing by an ally in public, I have a point. He said, in one of those moments when he didn't know the camera was on im, he lamented about Netanyahu "I have to deal with him every day", to another world leader, can't remember who it was.

"I am completely intolerant of the billions of dollars we are shipping out of this country"

One can make a compelling case about that...speaking for me, I'd rather give it to Israel than to Planned Parenthood or to ACORN.

"lost causes - that includes Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa and Israel"

Bush saved more than one million lives in Africa, with his massive AIDS relief project called EPFAR (for which, in a fair world, they re-name the Nobel Peace Prize after him). Generations and generations of kids will be born, thanks to us. Not a lost cause in my book.

Johnny, we are so lucky to be born here. Someday, you might find yourself in a situation where you really need someone else's help. If that ever happens, I hope you find someone who's not as seemingly self-centered as you appear to be.

In my opinion, the strong have a responsibility to help the weak. Many people would passionately disagree with that.

While I respect your position, I'm not going to get into much of a detailed retort because we philosophically disagree and there's no changing either of our minds. But there are a couple points I'll address quickly...

Dollars spent: $3billion being a rounding error or not, it is still a significant sum of money. As you frequently point to our crippling debt, I'd expect you to be the last person to trivialize a $3 billion expenditure.

Americans' support: You comment that Americans "feel that Israel deserves that aid" couldn't have been more perfect. I say that because I'd wager most non-Jewish individuals 40 y/o and younger could not actually state *why*. I strongly believe this and believe it is a function of the government's and mainstream media's propaganda. I point to the front page headline of CNN.com earlier "Clinton: The US will unquestionably support Israel." American's constantly read "We must support Israel", "Israel is a critical ally", "the US stands behind Israel" but aside from one person, no one has been able to actually state why - because they don't actually know why.

Obama's comment: Frankly, I think the comment goes to show how much of an actual drain Israel is on the US. Going back to my "little brother" analogy, I can see Obama's comment being along the lines of "yeah, the little s#$t is at it again." There's little denying that Israel is a pain in the ass for our foreign relations department.

The Money: I'd rather not spend the money at all... for PP, ACORN, or Israel.

Bush and Africa: Yup, a lot of people in Africa didn't die of AIDS thanks to Bush's efforts. However, they then went on to die from hunger, war or some other disease. You're right that generations and generations of kids will be born... to further overpopulate a lawless continent full of barbaric people that have been killing each other for hundreds of years and will continue to do so for hundreds more. Africa is the epitome of your complaints about the US welfare class - it is impossible to help those who don't want to help themselves.

My being self-centered: Call me self-centered, but I consider it US-centered. I believe in the Libertarian philosophy: If so many American's believe that Israel deserves the aid, then stop taking my tax money and let the individual make the contribution. Our economy is on the path of failure. If we are to continue contributing towards the world economy, then a major retraction in money sent out of the US needs to occur.

While I agree that the strong have a societal obligation to 'assist' the weak, as you stated in your earlier post, Israel is anything but weak. In my exhaustion with the US funding other people's wars, the military aid needs to end.


Well... that reply was significantly longer than I intended.

[Jim in CT]

Johnny D - all the facts you state are accurate, and the conclusions you draw from them certainly make sense. As usual, there is a TON of logic to every single point you have made on this topic.

I just disagree in that, if I have to sacrifice my hard-earned money so that the Israelis can acquire military equipment that literally helps them fight off annihilation...I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

IMHO, that money is better spent than failed welfare programs that incentivize and perpetuate laziness and entitlement. I feel my money is better spent keeping Israelis alive, then giving it to 'poor' people so they can buy cigarettes, beer, smart phones, flat screen TVs, etc...

As to Africa...there is a difference between those who won't help themselves, and those who can't help themselves. I'm certain you agree with that, we likely disagree about which category most africans fall into.

Anyway...happy holidays to you and yours, it seems we both are fortunate enough to have much to be thankful for.

[scottw]

yup, tough to argue those points and the problem is that we like to spread so much money around(I think that's a quote from someone famous) that it's often funding competing interests...... diplomacy, looking back at Spence's statement about Egypt, now comes down to what our political elections here have essentially become...."do what we want or you'll lose your welfare and freebies"....sad things is that this type of "motivation" is temporary and you have to keep paying everyone to "behave"....