Debate #2

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

It has nothing to do with incompetence and everything to do with larger trends.

Obama inherited a trillion + defecit and given the reduced tax revenues, war expenditures and pre-planned spending there's little a McCain president could have done to avoid adding similar debt. Sure, there's the gamble that stimulus spending was unecessary but I'm willing to wager it helped keep us slipping into a worse situation.




So you agree that nobody could turn things around overnight but the fact that things are getting better still isn't good enough, it's not fast enough for you. We could always sprinkle some magic dust on the US economy...that would fix the EU and China as well...right?

The problem right now isn't Obama, it's a political system that can't agree on even the most basic steps forward. Sure, there is plenty of blame to go around but either party would be well served to compramise with whomever is elected.

We know how the GOP responded to Obama's win.

-spence

"It has nothing to do with incompetence "

That's your opinion. In my opinion, 4 years is a lot of time, and $5 trillion is a lot to flush down the toilet, if all you have to show is zero jobs created and lower wages. A huge majority of business owners said the passage of Obamacare would hurt them, but Obama did it anyway. That's a big part of the 'larger trend' yuo describe, and that effect lies right at his feet.

Spence, there are states that are growing and adding jobs. They are overwhelmingly red states. Pure coincidence, I supose.

"Obama inherited a trillion + defecit "

(1) Inherited from whom? Obama and Biden were members of the US Senate, and they were in the party that controlled Congress from 2006-2010. In our country, the legislature controls the legislative agenda and the purse strings. So I'm not sure I give Obama a complete 'pass' on the mess he claims to have 'inherited'. He didn't walk in off the street. He was there. I'm not saying it's all his fault. But I'm saying he bears some responsibility for what happened.

(2) He promised to cut that deficit in half.

"there's little a McCain president could have done to avoid adding similar debt"

Wrong. McCain would not have passed Obamacare, and he wouldn't have implemented a stimulus that did nothing except delay public sector layoffs for one year.

"you agree that nobody could turn things around overnight "

Agree 100%. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who could have mis-managed the crisis worse than Obama has.

"the fact that things are getting better "

It's not a fact that things are better. $5 trillion added to our debt. That means that every living American is now $16,667 deeper in debt than when he took office. That works out to $67,000 for a family of 4, and the interest is now accumulating. What does that family of 4 have to show for that $67,000 IOU Obama gave to the Chinese on their behalf? Zero jobs created, and wages that are $4300 lower than they were 4 years ago. Higher healthcare costs. Astronomically higher fuel prices. How you can claim that it's a 'fact' that things are better, I simply cannot fathom.

We're not bleeding jobs like we were, that is a fact. But at what cost? And what kinds of jobs are being created - part time jobs with no healthcare. Whoop-dee-doo.

"We could always sprinkle some magic dust on the US economy"

You think that's a fair assessment of what McCain would have done, or what Romney is proposing/

That's you in a nutshell, right there, that post. You bend over backwards to heap praise on Obama, and yuo dismiss those who disagree with him as proposing to 'sprinkle magic dust'. That's very dishinest, and it's what we have all come to expect from you. I;m happy to honestly debate the merits of what Obama has actually said and done. You cannot bring yourself to do that with my side, because you know you can't reject these ideas on their merits, so all you can do is dishonestly dismiss them.

I cannot fathom that you work in finance, I can only pray that your DNA isn't on anything that will ever impact my family.

[scottw]

you two would never make it very far as foxhole buddies...

.....I did say "foxhole"......

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

you two would never make it very far as foxhole buddies...

.....I did say "foxhole"......

Gallup poll just released has Romney up 6. He is surging, really "peaking" at the right time. And the fact that the last debate, the last impression people will have, will be on foreign policy, could not work more to Romney's advantage. He has all weekend to prepare a narrative to use the Libya debacle to back Obama into a corner from which there is no escape. I cannot imagine that Obama's camp is looking forward to this debate.

The only tough question Obama got in teh debate (and it was a very tough question) wa steh gyu who asked "who rejected the diplomat's requet for more security, and why". Obama's answer? He spoke about how heroic the diplomats are...never even came close to answering teh question that was asked. And God knows Canbdy Crowley wasn't going to ask Obama to answerthe question that was asked. I guess sheet cake isn't brain food.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Gallup poll just released has Romney up 6.

now "7" (insert Joe Castiglione screech) and leading in the Electoral College....WOW...Honey Boo Boo switched to Romney explaining the unlikely surge...


whatever happened to Mitt blowing it and all the trends and data pointing to a Barry Cakewalk?


McCain was gaining some ground at this point in 08'

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

now "7" (insert Joe Castiglione screech) and leading in the Electoral College....WOW...Honey Boo Boo switched to Romney explaining the unlikely surge...


whatever happened to Mitt blowing it and all the trends and data pointing to a Barry Cakewalk?


McCain was gaining some ground at this point in 08'

Yes, it i snow a 7-point lead, and significantly, that poll starts to reflect the impact of the second debate. Perhaps Obama's improved performance did not stop the bleeding.

And the fact that the last debate, the one that will stick in people's minds, is foreign policy, can only help us. Romney will spend the weekend preparing to disembowel Obama over how ineptly he handled the ebmassy attack. That timing just could not work out better for Romney.

McCain lost the election when Lehman Brothers went belly-up. Once that was blamed on Republicans (no one has ever explained why Republicans did more than Democrats to cause the subprime mortgage crisis), McCain had no chance.

I can not believe Romney is doing as well as he is. Obama has cheeleaders moderating debates, and he is still very vulnerable. I never thought we'd have this good a chance with the media so in love with Obama. This "binder" nonsense just might be the stupidest, and most dishonest, thing I have ever heard.

[BigFish]

Yeah....binders full of womens names!!! That struck me as weak!!!

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Yeah....binders full of womens names!!! That struck me as weak!!!

If all Obama & the liberals can come up with 3 weeks before the election is Bigbird (who by the way makes $314k a year, not exactly non profit for a public tv station funded by tax payers) and Binders instead of their accomplishments & plan for another 4 years, don't you think thats pretty pathetic ???

So Larry,
Why so much hate of Romney as you stated ?
You resent wealth through accomplishment and hard work ?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Yeah....binders full of womens names!!! That struck me as weak!!!

yup, probably, most likely, nearly, maybe officially the...... OK..definitely the worst statement, comment, quip, gaff... I've ever heard or read that any candidate has ever made in a debate....good grief

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Yeah....binders full of womens names!!! That struck me as weak!!!

Wasn't his Lieutenant Governor a woman (Jane Swift)
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Yes, it i snow a 7-point lead, and significantly, that poll starts to reflect the impact of the second debate. Perhaps Obama's improved performance did not stop the bleeding.

There's one Gallup poll showing just outside of the margin, but when you look across polls Romney only has a slight lead in the popular vote.

Electoral college Obama still has the clear edge.

In other words...it's a dead heat.

-spence

This "binder" nonsense just might be the stupidest, and most dishonest, thing I have ever heard.

I agree, why did Romney make it up? The woman who ran the company that put the binder together said his story isn't true at all. The binder was assembled for both candidates before he became gubner. At the end of Romney's tenure the % of women in his cabinet was under 30% and much lower than his successor or predecessor.

Pretty sad when you have to dodge a valid question about equal pay with a fabrication.

-spence

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by spence

Pretty sad when you have to dodge a valid question about equal pay with a fabrication.
-spence

Call a spade a spade Spence.

Let's be serious here and agree that it is just as sad that Obama dodged valid questions in that debate as well.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

There's one Gallup poll showing just outside of the margin, but when you look across polls Romney only has a slight lead in the popular vote.

Electoral college Obama still has the clear edge.

In other words...it's a dead heat.

-spence



I agree, why did Romney make it up? The woman who ran the company that put the binder together said his story isn't true at all. The binder was assembled for both candidates before he became gubner. At the end of Romney's tenure the % of women in his cabinet was under 30% and much lower than his successor or predecessor.

Pretty sad when you have to dodge a valid question about equal pay with a fabrication.

-spence

Spence,if Romney was less than honest about what happened, let's get th rtruth out. That's important. But that's not what I'm hearing. What I'm hearing from liberals is that teh fact that Romney had a binder, is offensive to women.

It's not a dead heat. One only acts this desperate (claiming that notebooks are sexist) when (1) one knows they are in trouble, and (2) when one knows that they cannot talk about the issues.

People are realizing that in the poker game of ideas, Romney's full house beats Obama's pair of 6's.

The polls show a close race. Those polls are over-sampling Democrats, and are based on demographic turnouts from 2008, which no one is claiming will happen again.

Obama is in serious trouble.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"It has nothing to do with incompetence "

That's your opinion. In my opinion, 4 years is a lot of time, and $5 trillion is a lot to flush down the toilet, if all you have to show is zero jobs created and lower wages. A huge majority of business owners said the passage of Obamacare would hurt them, but Obama did it anyway. That's a big part of the 'larger trend' yuo describe, and that effect lies right at his feet.

It may be argued that Obama is extremely competent in accomplishsing HIS goals, not yours. When you argue back and forth with Spence on what are "better" economic methods and solutions, you are playing in his sandbox (and, apparently, yours) in which the problem is merely competence within a system of government that allows bureaucrats to do what they do, rather than the original sand box that would not allow such shenanigans. When arguing about competence within the parameters of the status quo (the central government's right and responsibility to control and create the "economy"), you are accepting that status quo. And it is that status quo, that system, which allows the competence or incompetence, to be the argument of who will be "better" rather than whether the federal government even has that right and responsibility

Spence, there are states that are growing and adding jobs. They are overwhelmingly red states. Pure coincidence, I supose.

There will always be sectors that will do better or worse. That's the beauty of federalism--the States being the laboratories of social, political, and economic experiments. But only insofar as they are allowed to do so. The more centralized that government becomes, the less will be the diversity of those experiments, and the more static society, the "economy", and the relationship between the citizen and the government becomes. The overall "economy" if left to the control of a central government will be diverse and evolutionary in the most limited way--only at the hands of a unitary directorate, and only change course within those limited parameters when parties can convince the electorate that their director is more competent than the other party.

"Obama inherited a trillion + defecit "

(1) Inherited from whom? Obama and Biden were members of the US Senate, and they were in the party that controlled Congress from 2006-2010. In our country, the legislature controls the legislative agenda and the purse strings. So I'm not sure I give Obama a complete 'pass' on the mess he claims to have 'inherited'. He didn't walk in off the street. He was there. I'm not saying it's all his fault. But I'm saying he bears some responsibility for what happened.

(2) He promised to cut that deficit in half.

Yes, you're absolutely right (there are absolutes, Spence). Obama bears some responsibility for the inheritance he helped to create--as do all the other members of Congress, and other Presidents and judges. And, as well, We The People bear some of that responsiblity, not only for electing them, but allowing them to transform the Constitution into a system of government that makes us underlings instead of masters.

"there's little a McCain president could have done to avoid adding similar debt"

Wrong. McCain would not have passed Obamacare, and he wouldn't have implemented a stimulus that did nothing except delay public sector layoffs for one year.

McCain would have helped to maintain the present administrative system of government, perhaps with a smaller growth in deficits and national debt. But the system would have been maintained, perhaps advanced to another level, and would be there for future mischief by bigger spenders and controllers.

"you agree that nobody could turn things around overnight "

Agree 100%. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who could have mis-managed the crisis worse than Obama has.

Again, depending on what Obama's goals are for fundamentally transforming this country and its system of government, he may be considered to have managed very well.

"the fact that things are getting better "

It's not a fact that things are better. $5 trillion added to our debt. That means that every living American is now $16,667 deeper in debt than when he took office. That works out to $67,000 for a family of 4, and the interest is now accumulating. What does that family of 4 have to show for that $67,000 IOU Obama gave to the Chinese on their behalf? Zero jobs created, and wages that are $4300 lower than they were 4 years ago. Higher healthcare costs. Astronomically higher fuel prices. How you can claim that it's a 'fact' that things are better, I simply cannot fathom.

See, that's the progressive sandbox in which you are playing. Arguing about how much rather than should they even be able.

We're not bleeding jobs like we were, that is a fact. But at what cost? And what kinds of jobs are being created - part time jobs with no healthcare. Whoop-dee-doo.

When the blood has drained so much, there is not as much left to be drained. It would have been mathematically impossible to maintain the higher number of jobs lost, but the rate at which they are presently lost in comparison to how much "blood" is left, may be as high or higher. Again, is it the Federal Government's responsibility to create jobs?

"We could always sprinkle some magic dust on the US economy"

You think that's a fair assessment of what McCain would have done, or what Romney is proposing/

That's you in a nutshell, right there, that post. You bend over backwards to heap praise on Obama, and yuo dismiss those who disagree with him as proposing to 'sprinkle magic dust'. That's very dishinest, and it's what we have all come to expect from you. I;m happy to honestly debate the merits of what Obama has actually said and done. You cannot bring yourself to do that with my side, because you know you can't reject these ideas on their merits, so all you can do is dishonestly dismiss them.

I cannot fathom that you work in finance, I can only pray that your DNA isn't on anything that will ever impact my family.

Finance, the "economy," jobs, health care, etc. are very important issues. The question (and answer) is whether the Federal government should be responsible for those things.