Should we be better than this

[RIJIMMY]

Yes, we should be better than this.
But if one minute we are bombing, and shooting them - lets be realistic. I'd rather be peed on that shot.
We are asking a lot of our troops, to kill, be away from their families, etc. These marines should be called in, reprimanded and then sent on their way. Nothing more. This should not be a public execution. This is minor, very minor.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

But if one minute we are bombing, and shooting them - lets be realistic. I'd rather be peed on that shot..

Except that these guys got both, dead and pissed on.

We should be better than this. In this day and age you have to realize, videos like that ALWAYS get leaked... the last thing we need is to give the taliban even more incentive to kill American soldiers.

time to get them all home...

[RIJIMMY]

[QUOTE=RIROCKHOUND;914082]Except that these guys got both, dead and pissed on.

We should be better than this. In this day and age you have to realize, videos like that ALWAYS get leaked... the last thing we need is to give the taliban even more incentive to kill American soldiers.
QUOTE]

Yeah, when some fat guy in a suit makes a mistake and a drone kills a bunch of pakistani kids we say, oops, sorry. Nothing more comes of it. But some kids FORCED to kill and be away from their families do a stupid thing and it becomes national news. Which gives the taliban more incentive???
It was wrong, I agree. But IMHO its as wrong as kids spray painting grafitti on a school building, nothing more. Reprimand them and let it be. Dont ruin these kids life, what we MADE them do is enough.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

But IMHO its as wrong as kids spray painting grafitti on a school building, nothing more. Reprimand them and let it be.

I think that's exactly the wrong way to look at it.

If you don't make an effort to maintain ethics in warfare you're no better than they are. It is certainly possible to be an ethical warrior, in fact its critical to provide a moral foundation for your actions.

This doesn't mean in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred. Hell, I'm sure at times it's even encouraged. But outside of this there needs to be respect for the fact that the enemy is/was a human being as well. Even OBL was treated with dignity, partially out of PR and also because it was the right thing to do.

What these guys did was send the message that in their eyes the Taliban are sub-human. That's a lot different than vandalism Jimmy.

Yes, stuff like this happens in war. The intensity, adrenaline, testosterone, stress, maturity etc... but they always look at the leadership don't they...

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

I think that's exactly the wrong way to look at it.

If you don't make an effort to maintain ethics in warfare you're no better than they are. It is certainly possible to be an ethical warrior, in fact its critical to provide a moral foundation for your actions.

This doesn't mean in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred. Hell, I'm sure at times it's even encouraged. But outside of this there needs to be respect for the fact that the enemy is/was a human being as well. Even OBL was treated with dignity, partially out of PR and also because it was the right thing to do.


-spence

you never cease to amaze me.
OBL was shot in cold blood, unarmed.
"in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred" - really? you think they KILL out of sense of duty? Orders?
Im gotta drop from this thread because I have a lot of emotion on military topics but I'll leave you with this to chew on spence. please read carefully - you never seem to much of a history guy so this may be shocking to you, but its 100% true
The 101st airborne has been recognized over and over for their heroics in WWII and especially d-day. They were immortalized further by the Band of Brothers movies and book. I've read additonal books written by some of the guys from Band of B. I attending a forum with these guys and heard their stories in person. It may be news to you but they shot, in cold blood, EVERY SS solider that surrendered to them. Everyone. never took an SS prisoner.. that was a war crime. that was wrong. But you know what, who cares? these guys are heroes and most men could never do what they did. I dont believe they are above the law, but the law changes when you see and do what they do every day. the same goes for those guys in afghanistan. Spence - you wouldnt have the balls to look those guys in the eye and condemn them. They've gone through more hell in a minute than you will in your life. To me, pissing on dead guys is equivalent to vandalism. its no big deal.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

you never cease to amaze me.
OBL was shot in cold blood, unarmed.

I believe that was the mission and something I don't have an issue with. The point was that we didn't parade his head around on a stake afterwords.

"in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred" - really? you think they KILL out of sense of duty? Orders?

I think that's pretty obvious don't you?

Im gotta drop from this thread because I have a lot of emotion on military topics but I'll leave you with this to chew on spence. please read carefully - you never seem to much of a history guy so this may be shocking to you, but its 100% true
The 101st airborne has been recognized over and over for their heroics in WWII and especially d-day. They were immortalized further by the Band of Brothers movies and book. I've read additonal books written by some of the guys from Band of B. I attending a forum with these guys and heard their stories in person. It may be news to you but they shot, in cold blood, EVERY SS solider that surrendered to them. Everyone. never took an SS prisoner.. that was a war crime. that was wrong. But you know what, who cares? these guys are heroes and most men could never do what they did. I dont believe they are above the law, but the law changes when you see and do what they do every day. the same goes for those guys in afghanistan. Spence - you wouldnt have the balls to look those guys in the eye and condemn them. They've gone through more hell in a minute than you will in your life. To me, pissing on dead guys is equivalent to vandalism. its no big deal.

This situation is a lot different than in WW2. You could also think that the taking of prisoners in that situation could be a tactical mistake.

Here the action has no real merit, but it's also potentially destructive considering the context.

I've never been quick to condemn the actions of our troops, and frankly believe they deserve a lot of leeway. Most likely these guys are good Marines who just did something stupid, especially by letting themselves be recorded on camera doing it.

An "anything goes" mentality isn't in the interest of our country or our troops.

-spence

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

Maybe the enemy would consider what they do before doing it if they knew we would retaliate in the same manner, isn't that what the cold war was all about.

I have to say, I am almost dumbfounded with your comments in this thread, but it makes it very clear how I could be so far apart from you on most of the topics in this forum. Completely different world view and belief of right and wrong, let alone what it means to be an American. If you are under 21 or so, I can chalk it up to age, but otherwise...

[spence]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

They have no respect for us and never will so I say treat them the way they treat you, let the enemy set the bar.

If you're advocating letting somebody else dictate what your own ethics should be I'm not thinking many will agree with you here.

I understand during world war II it was common practice to piss on the German soldiers who occupied pill boxes after the troops killed the occupants.

And in Vietnam they did a lot worse. What's your point?

Maybe it's their feelings of superiority that made them do it, if we are all humans we should treat each other equally, time to take the handcuffs off, you F-with us you pay. I think they ought to put up billboards stating "THIS COULD BE YOU....NEXT".

You can't fight effectively unless you choose sides, on that I'd agree.

But how you fight is up to you.

You seem to be saying that if the Taliban think they're going to get pee'd on they will be intimidated. I think that's silly.

Maybe we should just cover them with pig entrails in a humble ceremony stating that is our way of honoring enemy combatants.

Again, what's the point? Our mission is to help stabilize Afghanistan so they're not a haven for terrorists that might harm US interests.

How does humiliating the same "people" you're trying to help achieve this mission?

-spence