OBL(UBL) Killed

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Quick quiz.
Name a time "water boarding" worked? Hmmmm think hard....

I'm at a loss. When?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm at a loss. When?

-spence

I'll help ya Spence.

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

[scottw]

"Panetta acknowledges information from waterboarded detainees was used to help plan mission at bin Laden's compound - NBC News"

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I'll help ya Spence.

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

This article doesn't prove that waterboarding "works", in fact it doesn't even says that the name of the courier was obtained using harsh interrogation techniques. Reality seems to be that information was used from a variety of sources, one having been a person that had previously been waterboarded. This is no way implies that the waterboarding was the reason he gave up the information...

You seem to want to think that because waterboarding was present in the system at some time it must be the reason we were successful. This doesn't pass a basic smell test. Sure, it's possible, but if you don't know, and we do know there are numerous other legal interrogation techniques that could produce the same intel, you really can't say.

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding as much as I'm against us using it while saying we don't torture. Let's not use bad logic to justify behavior we can't reconcile with our own stated values.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding.

-spence

you should be waterboarded for some of the things that you try to run up the flag pole

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

This article doesn't prove that waterboarding "works", in fact it doesn't even says that the name of the courier was obtained using harsh interrogation techniques. Reality seems to be that information was used from a variety of sources, one having been a person that had previously been waterboarded. This is no way implies that the waterboarding was the reason he gave up the information...

You seem to want to think that because waterboarding was present in the system at some time it must be the reason we were successful. This doesn't pass a basic smell test. Sure, it's possible, but if you don't know, and we do know there are numerous other legal interrogation techniques that could produce the same intel, you really can't say.

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding as much as I'm against us using it while saying we don't torture. Let's not use bad logic to justify behavior we can't reconcile with our own stated values.

-spence

I'm sure Eric Holder could have got the information from them.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

This article doesn't prove that waterboarding "works", in fact it doesn't even says that the name of the courier was obtained using harsh interrogation techniques. Reality seems to be that information was used from a variety of sources, one having been a person that had previously been waterboarded. This is no way implies that the waterboarding was the reason he gave up the information...

You seem to want to think that because waterboarding was present in the system at some time it must be the reason we were successful. This doesn't pass a basic smell test. Sure, it's possible, but if you don't know, and we do know there are numerous other legal interrogation techniques that could produce the same intel, you really can't say.

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding as much as I'm against us using it while saying we don't torture. Let's not use bad logic to justify behavior we can't reconcile with our own stated values.

-spence

Google "Leon Penata interview" and try to spin what he said.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Google "Leon Penata interview" and try to spin what he said.

There's no spin, read my post above again.

Interestingly the report is now that KSM didn't even give any information up while being waterboarded, but that he actually lied about the link and threw us off the track. In other words, the waterboarding led to bad information.

Paneta's comment seems to be on track. Intel came from a variety of sources. Some sources had been subjected to enhanced techniques at some time, but he makes no connection between waterboarding and specific intel.

If waterboarding is ethical or legal is one argument, but the idea that it directly led (or even had a significant impact) to Bin Laden's capture doesn't seem to be based on any facts.

Because it's not possible to discount 100%, the issue is being used for political reasons.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

There's no spin, read my post above again.

Interestingly the report is now that KSM didn't even give any information up while being waterboarded, but that he actually lied about the link and threw us off the track. In other words, the waterboarding led to bad information.

Paneta's comment seems to be on track. Intel came from a variety of sources. Some sources had been subjected to enhanced techniques at some time, but he makes no connection between waterboarding and specific intel.

If waterboarding is ethical or legal is one argument, but the idea that it directly led (or even had a significant impact) to Bin Laden's capture doesn't seem to be based on any facts.

Because it's not possible to discount 100%, the issue is being used for political reasons.

-spence

You are the Master Spinster Spence. Well done...

In a world that Obama preached of before becoming President, Gitmo would be closed, trials would be in NY and UBL would be free.

I heard a great analogy to this. Obama is like a teenage kid who thought he knew everything, then grew up and realized Dad (GWB) was right all along.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

then grew up and realized Dad (GWB) was right all along.

Except of course about that damn Iraq mess....

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

I heard a great analogy to this. Obama is like a teenage kid who thought he knew everything, then grew up and realized Dad (GWB) was right all along.

That's a terrible analogy. What exactly was Bush "right" about? Shifting focus away from Al Qaeda and onto Iraq based on shoddy, manufactured "evidence" and then thrusting us into a Trillion Dollar war that accomplished literally nothing of value for the long-term safety of the American people?

Or was he right about the part where he helped progress this country to a point where Americans are forced to live in a Police state where granny will get diddled while trying to get on a plane because her fake hip set of a metal detector.

But hey, at least he got the guy who "tried to kill [his] daddy."

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

In a world that Obama preached of before becoming President, Gitmo would be closed, trials would be in NY and UBL would be free.

This doesn't make any sense, unless you think the CIA and our Armed Forces are completely incompetent. Reality is that there are a lot of very effective and legal methods to get information that the experts seem to think work quite well.

You just don't seem to be able to accept the fact that Obama get's to take credit for authorizing this mission.

-spence