More than 6,400 Mass employees make over $100K

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

it just sounded from your statement that everybody in the private sector gets salary and the public sector are the ones getting the overtime.

....

Dad, as far as I'm concerned, a company in the private sector can do whatever they want. They can pay all employees $10 million a year for all I care. Because in the private scetor (unlike the public sector) no one is forced to pay that cost unless they decide it's a good deal for them. Private sector companies can't increase prices, and then say "pay these new higher prices or I'll seize your house".

Do you not see a big difference there? The private sector (in the vast majority of cases) cannot greedily screw their customers. Competition prohibits that.

[The Dad Fisherman]

I'm a #^&#^&#^&#^&.....Get over it

[spence]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I'm a #^&#^&#^&#^&.....Get over it

And a coward. Hell, you couldn't even man up to meet me for that music stand

-spence

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by spence

And a coward. Hell, you couldn't even man up to meet me for that music stand

-spence

When the Subject line of the PM you sent me said "To My Future Gimp"...I got a-scared

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I'm a #^&#^&#^&#^&.....Get over it

Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. I truly couldn't care less.

You have a habit, with me at least, of ignoring the issue at hand, and focusing instead on trivial (in my opinion) details. I want to be as accurate as possible, i think you'll see that I never got defensive to the corrections you made to my posts.

But along the way, you repeatedly dodged (or perhaps missed) my main point. So I'll ask it one last time, and you can choose whether or not to answer.

"Dad, pretend you are governor of Mass. Given the current economic climate, would you recommend that public employees switch from pensions to 401(k)'s? Or would you recommend leaving the pensions in place, and raising taxes significantly to pay for that?"

If I've made any typos or spelling mistakes, feel free to call me on them. But perhaps you could also give a yes or no answer to that question, with maybe a sentence or 2 of explanation as to why.

Answer it, don't answer it, ignore it and insult me instead...your choice.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Answer it, don't answer it, ignore it and insult me instead...your choice.

Because you, yourself, would never insult anybody in the context of a thread

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Wrong again, because you don't get economics 101.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Nice dodge, coward.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Are you getting it now?

I'll answer your question...

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Dad, pretend you are governor of Mass. Given the current economic climate, would you recommend that public employees switch from pensions to 401(k)'s? Or would you recommend leaving the pensions in place, and raising taxes significantly to pay for that?".

I would keep the pensions in place for those who were hired under that plan. These were the benefits packages that were offered them when they accepted the job, so they need to be honored. Going forward w/ new hires I would go to a 401k scenario.

Does that answer your question? You can throw out more questions or find flaws in this but I really don't care....you're not changing my view on this. You can't renege' on benefits offered...sorry that's just me.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Because you, yourself, would never insult anybody in the context of a thread









I'll answer your question...




I would keep the pensions in place for those who were hired under that plan. These were the benefits packages that were offered them when they accepted the job, so they need to be honored. Going forward w/ new hires I would go to a 401k scenario.

Does that answer your question? You can throw out more questions or find flaws in this but I really don't care....you're not changing my view on this. You can't renege' on benefits offered...sorry that's just me.

Dad, after all that, and it turns out our positions are almost identical. The only difference is, I would require that younger workers (say under 35) hired under a pension, be forced to switch to a 401(k), of course keeping the portion of the benefit that they have earned. That's what the private sector did in the mid 1990s.

Yes, that answers my question. That was a direct answer, and I only needed to ask you 300 times to get it out of you.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Dad, after all that, and it turns out our positions are almost identical. The only difference is, I would require that younger workers (say under 35) hired under a pension, be forced to switch to a 401(k), of course keeping the portion of the benefit that they have earned. That's what the private sector did in the mid 1990s.

Yes, that answers my question. That was a direct answer, and I only needed to ask you 300 times to get it out of you.

I also agree with this, but I think that anyone already hired should be either left alone, or some form of buyout in the form of a lumpsum payment equal to the current value of their pension be place into the new 401k plan to get them started. Like I stated earlier this post was strictly about the amount of income these people earned.

Also you previously stated in the private sector the companies make the customer pay for services they want. As an intelligent person I assume you would agree, that we all have wants and needs. Seeing as basic needs are that potholes are repaired, traffic, and street lights work, water and sewer work, someone protects our property, and someone teaches our children, then we must pay for these services as well. If we did not there would be fewer public servants to provide these services, cause like you stated you did, they would go to the private sector for more money.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I truly couldn't care less.

Now here's a statement that I've been trying to strike from conversation. Seems like every time I say, "You know what, I could not f(*&ing care less," I always surprise myself in how much less caring there is to do. I get there eventually though.

[scottw]

I love the new civility...isn't it great?

[Swimmer]

Jim, the next time you need help call a friend or a stranger, and see if the can help you clean up your problems. Get in a crash, exchange papers with the other person, and dont bother the cop Fall flat on your face, unresponsive, at the post office and see who get there more quickly, cop or a firefighter. Cops do CPR really well. Remember, it is the first few minutes that count the most. Your relative that retired at 43 and is going to collect his retirement for 50 years is an anomaly. In Mass. the only way that would occur would be if he retired on a disability. To max out here you have to served 32 years and be 55 years of age. You can retire under 55 on a regular retirement, but the pay is reduced drastically for every year under 55 that that the person is who is retiring.

My wife has a grad degree in math and she cant stand it either when everyone (me) doesn't agree with her . You need something more to do in the winter. And stop calling people cowards here. That word shouldn't be used loosely.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Jim, the next time you need help call a friend or a stranger, and see if the can help you clean up your problems. Get in a crash, exchange papers with the other person, and dont bother the cop Fall flat on your face, unresponsive, at the post office and see who get there more quickly, cop or a firefighter. Cops do CPR really well. Remember, it is the first few minutes that count the most. Your relative that retired at 43 and is going to collect his retirement for 50 years is an anomaly. In Mass. the only way that would occur would be if he retired on a disability. To max out here you have to served 32 years and be 55 years of age. You can retire under 55 on a regular retirement, but the pay is reduced drastically for every year under 55 that that the person is who is retiring.

My wife has a grad degree in math and she cant stand it either when everyone (me) doesn't agree with her . You need something more to do in the winter. And stop calling people cowards here. That word shouldn't be used loosely.

Swimmer, let me see if I understand you, OK?

I am not saying cops don't deserve a fair wage. What I am saying is, I don't see why they deserve richer benefits (retirement and healthcare) than what's available to the public they claim to serve.

Instead of telling me what's wrong with that (because obviously there is nothing wrong with that), you tell me that I therefore don't deserve police protection?

I'll say this. If my town offered a private company-alternative to public police, and I got to choose which covered me, I would go private, because it would obviously be much cheaper.

You are another one of thise clowns who cannot attempt to respond to the merits of my argument, so you come up with some stupid response that's off point. Somehting that's designed to stop the debate.

Dad Fisherman also agreed with me that they should switch to 401(k)s, I guess he doesn't deserve that protection either.

"Your relative that retired at 43 and is going to collect his retirement for 50 years is an anomaly"

How would you know that? How could you possibky know how many guys do that? Here in CT, most towns have no age minimum, they only require 20 years of service.


"stop calling people cowards here. That word shouldn't be used loosely"

Last time I checked, I don't answer to you, I don't need your permission to state my opinion. I don't use that term loosely. I use it when it fits, for example, when someone like you refuses to answer a simple question, and instead hurls insults.

I asked many times why cops deserve pensions instead of 401(k)s. It's a simple, direct, fair question. Instead of answering, you went on a nonsensical rant about how, if I want some limits on public compensation, then I don't deserve those services. Believe me, if I could opt out o fthose services, and get my property taxes back, I would. Because every service provided by a public union, can be provided by a private entity for a fraction of the cost. Everyone knows this. That fact may not serve your personal agenda, but it's a fact nonetheless.

You didged my question completely. That's intellectually cowardly.

"You need something more to do in the winter."

Sorry if my questions make you uncomfortable. In the description of this forum, John R stated somehting to the effect of "if you don't want to hear what someone has to say, then do not enter".

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, I'm as flawed as anyone else. However, I apply a thoughtful, common sense thought process to these issues, and that makes it tough for someone like you to debate me, because you aren't able to articulate why you feel the way you do. If you could, you would have responded to my question instead of dodging and insulting.

I just cannot think of a reason why towns should face bankruptcy so cops should have pensions instead of 401(k)s. Obviously you disagree, but you will not tell me why. Can't you try?

[Chesapeake Bill]

Swimmer,

I can take it. I've been called worse by better. I have lots of ribbons and metals to prove him wrong. If you look at my early discussions I tried to be civil. Then, like others here, I realized it was like wrestling the proverbial pig in mud...so I started just poking into the corral to get teh bull mad. It worked.

You hit it right on the head. He needs more to do in the winter.

Bill

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Swimmer,

I have lots of ribbons and metals to prove him wrong.

Bill

can we see your "metals" ?

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Swimmer,
The fire is so much brighter to the uninformed...

I'm noticing that cheap shots and reveling in prodding, insults... is OK if it goes one way(your way)...."do you fish""...that's a good one....proverbial pig...brilliant...just don't say "coward"...the thought/word police get mad and tell you what you may and may not do and say here(themselves excluded of course)....I think there's a word for that too but I wouldn't want to use it loosely...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

can we see your "metals" ?




I'm noticing that cheap shots and reveling in prodding, insults... is OK if it goes one way(your way)...."do you fish""...that's a good one....proverbial pig...brilliant...just don't say "coward"...the thought/word police get mad and tell you what you may and may not do and say here(themselves excluded of course)....I think there's a word for that too but I wouldn't want to use it loosely...

Thanks...it's like Obama calling for civility out of one side of his mouth, and out of the other side, he says the Cambridge police acted stupidly.

But if I want to run for office, I need to control my temper. My wife reminds me of that constantly.

[RIROCKHOUND]

I don't think many people have said, pensions are better.

However, significant disagreements come when you start messing with agreed upon benefits and contracts of current employees. I think one answer is what many towns are doing; minimum ages and longer minimum service times for younger personnel, and new hires. You cannot penalize those that are retired or are close to retirement, who had planned accordingly. Few of us have said anything to the contrary, but you browbeat and demand answers that makes most of us not want to respond with anything logical and thoughtful.

And Jim, the Obama-civility comment is beneath you. You take an event from a > year ago, and comments made last month as proof of him talking out of his mouth. The paraphrase of his line on civility is that 'I need to be better, and we need to be better' in reference to living up to the deceased girls ideals in the close of the Tuscon speech. I choose to read this as he admits he has acted and said things he regrets now. you see it as two-faced. whatever. back to my la-la mental defective land....

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

But if I want to run for office, I need to control my temper. My wife reminds me of that constantly.

there is always a good woman behind their husband politician.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

No one has said "I think pensions are better than 401(k)s because..."

I think pensions are better than 401K's because you don't have to worry about the stock market tanking.

pretty simple to me

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I don't think many people have said, pensions are better.

However, significant disagreements come when you start messing with agreed upon benefits and contracts of current employees. I think one answer is what many towns are doing; minimum ages and longer minimum service times for younger personnel, and new hires. You cannot penalize those that are retired or are close to retirement, who had planned accordingly. Few of us have said anything to the contrary, but you browbeat and demand answers that makes most of us not want to respond with anything logical and thoughtful.

And Jim, the Obama-civility comment is beneath you. You take an event from a > year ago, and comments made last month as proof of him talking out of his mouth. The paraphrase of his line on civility is that 'I need to be better, and we need to be better' in reference to living up to the deceased girls ideals in the close of the Tuscon speech. I choose to read this as he admits he has acted and said things he regrets now. you see it as two-faced. whatever. back to my la-la mental defective land....

"significant disagreements come when you start messing with agreed upon benefits and contracts of current employees"

I agree, it's a rough thing to switch from a pension to a 401(k), and I do not take that lightly. However, 95% of us in the private sector made that switch 15 years ago, and we all managed to survive. I see no reason why cops and teachers would be less able to survive that switch.

"You cannot penalize those that are retired or are close to retirement, who had planned accordingly."

You are 100% correct. I've never heard anyone suggest that the switch should apply to current retirees or to those so close to retirement that they have no time to respond. It should only apply to younger workers.

However, even in the case of current retirees, what if the promised benefits are so fat that the citizens literally cannot afford them? I don't want to hurt retirees. But you can't triple property taxes either, right? That hurts everybody. We need to do what's fair and equitable for all of us, not the select few who are in unions.

"You take an event from a > year ago, and comments made last month as proof of him talking out of his mouth."

OK, a few weeks ago he said that Republicans should have to "sit in the back of the bus". Is that recent enough? Is that civilized dialogue? I'm sorry if this upsets you, but I don't recognize Obama's right to ask for civility. I picked one of my favorite examples, but there are many more recent.

[Chesapeake Bill]

Scott,

You are more than welcome to see both the ones I display in my shadow box (properly referred to as medals) and the ones I sling! Good catch. My bad for typing too fast. I can take a ribbing. I actually nejoy the good natured subtle humor that this board provides. There are many closet commedians here.

I have found that with the written word it is often difficult to tell when you have crossed that thin line from kidding into insults or accusations. Pardon me while I continue maintaining some reels for the upcoming season.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,

You are more than welcome to see both the ones I display in my shadow box (properly referred to as medals) and the ones I sling! Good catch. My bad for typing too fast. I can take a ribbing. I actually nejoy the good natured subtle humor that this board provides. There are many closet commedians here.

I have found that with the written word it is often difficult to tell when you have crossed that thin line from kidding into insults or accusations. Pardon me while I continue maintaining some reels for the upcoming season.

get on it man...spring is coming fast...building my collection of bucktails as we speak...good to have thick skin, particularly in here

[Jim in CT]

Swimmer, in another one of your asinine rants, you said people give cops pensions to "feel safe".

I asked you to support your assertion that communities where cops have pensions are "more safe" than communities where cops have 401(k)s. I noticed you never responed to that, either.

Swimmer, I respond to your points directly, I think you'll agree. All you do is dodge my points.

If that's not cowardly, what do you call it.

One last time Swimmer. Why would it be inappropriate to expect cops to live with 401(k)s instead of pensions, since everybody else has to do that?

Am I going too fast for you? Too many big words in that question?

I was a Marine, Swimmer, I was in combat twice, and I'm damn proud of that. However, I don't think that entitles me to lifetime benefits that people are genuinely burdened to have to pay for. I don't feel entitled to benefits so rich that it literally effects the bond rating of the government that pays for them. I don't want senior citizens to have to do without medicine or heat so that I can have a fat, cushy pension.

You, apparently, are fine with asking people to work an extra job so that you can have benefits that do not exist, in fact can not exist, in the real world.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I was a Marine, Swimmer, I was in combat twice, and I'm damn proud of that.

Someone with a taxpayer paid retirement system complaining about taxpayer paid retirment systems.

Classic.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Someone with a taxpayer paid retirement system complaining about taxpayer paid retirment systems.

Classic.

My wife was a schoolteacher before we had kids. She agrees with me that pensions are an unfair burden to ask the taxpayers to pay for, and she has ticked off her union by saying that. She has begged her union to switch to 401(k)s, and she has made more than a few enemies.

I don't just talk the talk likwid. In this economic climate, pensions are just wrong and unfair. If that means my wife gets a smaller retirement package, fine, that's what I want. As I said before, I don't feel personally entitled to benefits that are so rich that folks have to struggle to pay for them.

I'm being less hypocritical given that this effects me personally, not more hypocritical. I stick to my convictions. When she goes back to teaching, I'd prefer that she get a 401(k) than a pension.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Jim,

I think Ted was asking if you get a pension from your service in the USMC.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Jim,

I think Ted was asking if you get a pension from your service in the USMC.

No pension.

I will say this. If I did receive a pension, I would take it, i wouldn't burn the money. But if it was put to a vote, I would vote to abolish pensions.

My wife will likely receive some kind of pension. We'll take it, because we did pay into it with our own money, but I don't think it's fair. And I would support any politician who agreed with me.

I wish we all had enough money to give teachers and cops a blank check, I really do. But the fact is, we don't.

[Jim in CT]

Swimmer, I apologize for the personal insults. I was called on it, and the person who called me on it was exactly right to do so. A perfect example of my many flaws that I need to work on.

I stand by my assertion that you have repeatedly refused to answer my direct questions. If I ask why do cops deserve pensions, I don't think an appropriate response is that I don't deserve police protection.

I said before that I respect cops and teachers. I have 2 family members who are cops, and my wife is a temporarily retired teacher. These are difficult, vitally important jobs.

That being said, I see no reason why these folks (who are public servents) should not be expected to get by with the same benefits available to the public the claim to serve.

If anyone disagrees with me, instead of insulting me, perhaps you could explain why. I genuinely like to debate with those who disagree with me, it's the best way to learn.