Feel better?

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

The "idea" for withdrawal was when either the Iraqi government demanded it (not pretended for their constituents that they wanted it) or when it was safe to do so. Time lines, as it has been argued, can be a signal to the enemy when they can wait to safely have a massive "resurgence." Stated time lines that have no relation to conditions on the ground are stupid, political poop.

I think there are plenty of reasons to not agree with this. First, the writings of Bush's most trusted advisors his first term appeared to strongly believe in a long-term US military presence in the region.

Second, the construction of gigantic military bases and the $770M embassy, the largest in the world.

And third, a SOFA position that bargained for a long-term US presence with nearly complete autonomy. It was this position that the Iraqi's rejected and led to a time line for withdrawal.

The Iraq government mouthed political verbiage about wanting our troops to leave in order to molilfy Iraqis who hated "the occupation." But the Iraq government did not demand immediate withdrawal (they knew that could be a disaster), nor even gave a stupid "time line" to do it. Their "dislike" of our "occupation" was a CYA political sham, knowing full well that our troops were the only guarantee of their safety and existence. Even the Iraqi people, when polled, wanted, something like 60% to 40%, our troops to stay till it was safe to leave (no time line).

I'd like to see a source for that poll as what I've read indicates otherwise.

If you'r referring to my chutzpah comment, I didn't say the chutzpah belonged to the voters. It belongs to Biden claiming that Iraq "could be one of the great achievements of" his administration. And "you're going to see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government." Which is exactly what the Bush administration was derided for (by Biden, Obama, nearly the whole political left)--nation building--imposing democracy in the Middle-East where it was supposedly impossible. And "I've been impressed how they have been deciding to use the political process rather than guns to settle their differences"--when he had wanted to partition Iraq into 3 states.

As I've said, the Obama inherited this mess and for them to see it to a positive milestone is absolutely an accomplishment they should be taking credit for.

So Biden's viewpoint may have shifted based on the observations from the ground? Isn't that exactly why you claim time tables are stupid? Because they need to reflect reality?

Again, it's reinforcement that the Obama Administration is more pragmatic than people are giving them credit for. Hell, this "left wing radical" is scaling up US military actions in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen!

-spence