Mass. weighs tougher protections for striped bass - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Canalman · 12-08-2009, 01:27 PM

The thing I don't get, is why do you need to supplement your salary with commercial fishing? There are plenty of legit commerical fishermen out there who rely on the ocean to provide for their families. And they can't fall back on writing speeding tickets if they need a push, so why should you be able to sell their fish?

If all states made it necessary to provide proof that commercial fishing made up more than %50 their income, this debate would be moot.

-Dave

Doublerunner · 12-08-2009, 01:38 PM

I do agree that the rec needs to do their share as well. Thinks about this....if commercial is banned completely how many of those guys will make up for it with charter businesses? And if those are not regulated then it could be worse.

I think some of the wording can be mis-leading to some. A lot of people think when you use the term "rec" fisherman all they think of is the guy taking his kid and fishing from the shore. All the party boats and charter boats are considered rec as well. So separate classifications may be needed to spell it out a bit more specifically.

But regardless of that, as I have stated from the beginning, we all need to do our part. This should not all come off the backs of the commercial guys and I think if the commercial guys worked together with the "on shore" rec guys then we could also limit what the "boat" recs take in

Also, by establishing the license registry and more people having to pay to fish the monies raised should go to more enforcement.

And we really need to get rid of the netting of menhaden. This is a huge problem and if we can't eliminate it then there should be tighter restrictions on amounts and also how they are caught so that there is no by-product kill offs and/or damage to the oceans eco-system

Doublerunner · 12-08-2009, 01:45 PM

from another forum

You have some really nice fish up there...and about this time of year they migrate down towards us, here in Virginia, thankfully for you most of them stay miles and miles offshore safe from my treble hooks...however...

This picture was taken 9-11 miles offshore, approximately 13-19 vessels and their tenders were in the process of harvesting tens of thousands of pounds of striper forage...

Quote:

I witnessed a rape!
Today, me and Tim did a little bit of work at the boat and decided to take her out and stretch her legs for a minute. For about the past two weeks, there has been a very large area of menhaden, stripers, and blues out off Virginia Beach. Me and Tim figured that since we were out anyways, we might as well see if we can C&R some blues and stripers on light tackle- with blues being our primary target.
When they first showed up, they were 25 or so miles out. The large schools have been inching their way closer and closer to legal fishing grounds since their arrival from the north and I would have expected to see stripers and blues in legal waters this weekend, IF I hadnt seen what I saw today.
This photo does not do it justice. 7-9 miles straight out of Rudee there was the entire omega fleet RAPING the ocean. The entire horizon was loaded with net boats. I counted somewhere between 13 and 17 of the big boats and a whole bunch more of the tenders. Spread over about two miles, nothing was safe. Thousands of birds feeding and so much death in the water that four miles downcurrent, there was still a scumline of menhaden slime on the water.
I will bet that our school of stripers and blues, which days ago were so thick you couldnt keep a bait in the water, will be gone- and I think you can probably imagine where they went.
Why is this legal?
Thanks again Omega. You suck.
Omega is slaughtering them...they feed on our offshore schools of menhaden and end up trapped in miles of purse seines and end up being crushed and suffocated under millions of pounds of menhaden in OMEGA PROTEINS nets, then released dead to sink to the bottom after OMEGA has suctioned out all the menhaden from their nets... PISSED OFF? SO ARE WE...CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMAN/SENATOR...put pressure on Virginias Legislature to shut down OMEGA PROTEIN and cease this raping...

Doublerunner · 12-08-2009, 01:46 PM

and more on menhaden

Omega's lobbyist donate millions to the legislature - Senators and Congressman. This has been going on for years on end.

The Virginia legislative session begins January 13th 2010. Watermen and fishermen raise hell year after year. Over the last three years they were appeased with a cap on tonnage. But thats about it. Reedsville screams about the 200 plus workers who will be without jobs but really its the humps in office who take the $$ under the derby in political tradeoffs from some other BS.
The RFA and CCF guys should be lauded and applauded. They wont stop just because it seems futile. Constant pressure and public scrutiny may change status quo. Its not like its going un-noticed any more.

CowHunter · 12-08-2009, 05:32 PM

I know I'm done, (For the 10th time).
Just wanted to post a link for the NJ Bonus tag program. New Jersey allocates its comercial catch to recreational fisherman. Each fish in NJ is sold out for $2.00 a fish, (Used to be a buck or so- I never got one). The COMMERCIAL or as rec guys would like to hear BONUS TAG Program quota is 321,750lbs.... That is twice what RI's commercial quota is and close to a third of mass com quota. Anyone can get one. The State gets all the $$$ and the tag system is abused. Guys rarely fill out the tag unless they see a warden. If heard Rec Guys refer to it as "The Gift that keeps on Giving". Stripersforever dont have a problem with this, are they even aware??

I'm just calling it how it is... How do you Hardcore rec Guys feel about this????

Mark My words, if Mass looses its com quota it WILL Be distributed to other states. Boys down south Cant wait!

CowHunter · 12-08-2009, 05:38 PM

NJDEP Division of Fish & Wildlife - Striped Bass Bonus Program

Slipknot · 12-08-2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I know I'm done, (For the 10th time).
Just wanted to post a link for the NJ Bonus tag program. New Jersey allocates its comercial catch to recreational fisherman. Each fish in NJ is sold out for $2.00 a fish, (Used to be a buck or so- I never got one). The COMMERCIAL or as rec guys would like to hear BONUS TAG Program quota is 321,750lbs.... That is twice what RI's commercial quota is and close to a third of mass com quota. Anyone can get one. The State gets all the $$$ and the tag system is abused. Guys rarely fill out the tag unless they see a warden. If heard Rec Guys refer to it as "The Gift that keeps on Giving". Stripersforever dont have a problem with this, are they even aware??

I'm just calling it how it is... How do you Hardcore rec Guys feel about this????

Mark My words, if Mass looses its com quota it WILL Be distributed to other states. Boys down south Cant wait!

I told you earlier how i felt about it and i hope it never happens like that here in Mass.

well put cowhunter
I guess I'll just continue doing my part by releasing all my 40 pounders and hope they survive the gauntlet so I can catch them again when they are 50's

MikeToole · 12-08-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I know I'm done, (For the 10th time).
Just wanted to post a link for the NJ Bonus tag program. New Jersey allocates its comercial catch to recreational fisherman. Each fish in NJ is sold out for $2.00 a fish, (Used to be a buck or so- I never got one). The COMMERCIAL or as rec guys would like to hear BONUS TAG Program quota is 321,750lbs.... That is twice what RI's commercial quota is and close to a third of mass com quota. Anyone can get one. The State gets all the $$$ and the tag system is abused. Guys rarely fill out the tag unless they see a warden. If heard Rec Guys refer to it as "The Gift that keeps on Giving". Stripersforever dont have a problem with this, are they even aware??

Mark My words, if Mass looses its com quota it WILL Be distributed to other states. Boys down south Cant wait!

So for small money any joe blow can get a mass license and kill far more at less than $2.00 a fish. There are plenty of fish caught under the Mass license process that do not make it into the state quote numbers. This system is abused and the state gets the money. Different process, same results. How about the great results Maryland recently had with their commercial fisherman poaching problems. In that case they were actually real commercial fisherman. In mass the licenses mostly go to greedy recreational fisherman.

I can assure you that Stripers Forever are well aware of how NJ uses their quota. From the ones I've talked to they do not think this is any better then commercial fishing. Lets make demons out of a group that is actually working together to protect a resource. They may be on the extreme side but it is usually these groups that finally get action to occur.

I look at the fishery as something that should be maintained in the best interest of the public. For stripers you have a huge number of people fishing for them, which results in true social benefits. So it is in the best interest of the public to keep this fishery in a very health state. When you reach the point where you need to reduce the catch you should first reduce the catch being taken by the groups being given special benefits, over the general population. That is what the commercial quota is. What makes anyone think that they deserve the right to a public resource for personal finiancial gain over that of the rest of the public.

The Northeast cod fishery could produce at least three times as much fish as it presently does if we would just let it recover. But to prevent short term job loss we continue to waste a valuable resource by are in action.

CowHunter · 12-08-2009, 02:00 PM

Its a no win situation here, this board is so biased it isnt even funny. Ive been on here since 2000 and it really is waste of time to post here...Im done. Enjoy the Canal...

Slipknot · 12-08-2009, 02:05 PM

Its a no win situation here,

this board is so biased it isnt even funny.
Ken, maybe some members are but the board is NOT

calm down everyone please

Slipknot · 12-08-2009, 02:09 PM

that kind of thing touches nerves Dave

and that kind of thing can never happen as long as we have a Constitution.
This is America, you can't dictate who can make a living a certain way, that is rediculous and every time I hear it brought up I think it is rediculous.

"their fish" come on, the fish belong to all of us , it is a natural resource.

Cowhunter, no need to run away mad, you state your reasoning and others have debated, let's not all get carried away please.

Canalman · 12-08-2009, 02:24 PM

Missed my point Bruce.

I don't really think of the fish as anyone's fish. Cowhunter is the one who started using the "theirs/ours" reference I was just using his words to make a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slipknot

that kind of thing touches nerves Dave

and that kind of thing can never happen as long as we have a Constitution.
This is America, you can't dictate who can make a living a certain way, that is rediculous and every time I hear it brought up I think it is rediculous.

"their fish" come on, the fish belong to all of us , it is a natural resource.

Cowhunter, no need to run away mad, you state your reasoning and others have debated, let's not all get carried away please.

Canalman · 12-08-2009, 02:35 PM

Let's just lay this whole thing out there for everyone.

Cowhunter, Me, Slipknot, JohnR, BackBeach, Jimmy Houston, Fred Arbogast.... and the rest of us began fishing because we love it.

The ins and outs of this argument are just like the ins and outs of arguing about republican vs democrat---which ammounts to F)*^ing impossible.

On the one hand, we have seen commercial fishing cripple or anihilate several species in the past. It's no secret that the professional fishing sect wiped out the codfish south and west of Cape Cod, not too many recs fishing George's Bank.

We have some strange arguments regarding the leagality of commercial fishing for striped bass...

On the one hand Cowhunter wants it and he wants it because he's not doing that much damage (something his avatar might tell otherwise). So in a very strange twist, he's pointing the finger at commericals from down south saying that they are the ones doing a lot of the damage.

This is a fact. But not all of it.

The difference I see is in willingness.

We the recs are willing to whittle our take down, while the comms cry for more. What kind of sense does this make for anyone who started fishing because it was fun.

The next difference is in the kind of damage, many commercials are specialists at taking the largest fish which yield the largest dollar ammouts. They do a huge ammounts of damage to our best breeders, fish in the 25-40 pound class. Why is this so hard to get?

Nebe · 12-08-2009, 02:39 PM

Treat bass exactly like Florida treats the redfish..

case closed.

Canalman · 12-08-2009, 02:40 PM

Perhaps a better a plan would be to leave the quota the same and open the season up to 365 days a year. But lower the daily catch limit to say 5-8 fish. This way it wouldn't be worth it for the double-dippers to go out every day. Close it to out of staters and all the better. This would give the true commerical fisherman another option to top off his catch from May through November.

I's still rather see it go away

Back Beach · 12-08-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canalman

I's still rather see it go away

Me too, with my new condom line soon to be released I won't miss the $300 fishing income much at all...

Slipknot · 12-08-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canalman

Missed my point Bruce.

I don't really think of the fish as anyone's fish. Cowhunter is the one who started using the "theirs/ours" reference I was just using his words to make a point.

I was referring to your quote here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canalman

If all states made it necessary to provide proof that commercial fishing made up more than %50 their income, this debate would be moot.

-Dave

that is a discussion for another thread

It will never happen.

Back Beach · 12-08-2009, 02:11 PM

I don't agree with this Dave. Fishing income can be highly arbitrary based on many factors, which is why next to nobody does it exclusively.

With specific regard to the Mass season, I read out of 3700 plus permit holders, only 100 or so report catching over 3000# of bass annually. Obviously most guys are using it to subsidize an expensive hobby. This means most guys are selling fish for the "wrong" reason, but the free market economy we live in permits this to happen as it does with most industries, thankfully.

Saltheart · 12-08-2009, 02:39 PM

Just as its good to discuss lowering the take by Recreational Fisherman by changing the size and bag limits , Its deffinitely OK to talk about whether there should be increased regulation of Commercial fisherman including possible stiffer requirements to maintain a license or reduced limits , etc.

What is not good message board etiquette is turning it personal on someone who is posting on the topic. The more avid the fisherman , the more these issues are taken to heart but it is never OK to go after an individual instead of the topic being discussed. Its never OK to give out personal information as part of these personal attacks.

This board is absolutely the most open fishing board anywhere. All opinions are welcome , we allow links to sites that members find informative as long as its not overboard spamming. The make up of the board's members cannot be forced to have equal numbers of people posting both sides of a given issue. If it seems the board is biased its because there are more mebers with a certain opinion on something. This mix changes very quickly as the topic changes.

This is a good discussion that has gone on for several pages with lots of opinions expressed. It would be ashame to have to lock the thread.

Canalman · 12-08-2009, 02:43 PM

Fair enough. I don't even know him, I thought that was common knowledge.

Cowhunter -- sorry for going there, that's a sincere apology

Doublerunner · 12-08-2009, 02:54 PM

I will tell you I have learned more from discussing this issue from all different view points than from what I have read and heard. I also have a lot more respect for Cowhunter and other commercial fishermen than I did in the past.

Communication is the key. But only if we all agree that the most important issue is making the resource available to us evenly and fairly. And also keep it around for our kids, grand kids, and generations to come

By the way someone had mentioned making the season open 365 days a year to comm. I do not agree with that. There should be no fish taken that are wintering or pre-spawn. Also, that would require many, many more trips for the comm and gas costs alone would make that a losing proposition. Yes a longer season with lower daily limits is fine but maybe meet somewhere in the middle?

I also believe we need to keep our big breeders so a slot limit would make more sense and no netting for the stripers

We also need to get rid of the netters of the menhaden. Whether it's purse seining or dragging it needs to stop

Canalman · 12-08-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doublerunner

We also need to get rid of the netters of the menhaden. Whether it's purse seining or dragging it needs to stop

I agree with all of that, just playing devil's advocate

Boy I hope there's no menhaden commerical fishermen on here!

CowHunter · 12-08-2009, 03:30 PM

Numbskull, that was not directed at you... It was for Doublerunner, sorry bud

Mr. Sandman · 12-08-2009, 02:43 PM

This is what happens at these meetings and why I no longer go. Everyone gets insulted and everyone knows more than the next guy. Fishermen, as a group are pretty narrow minded people. They are not the creme dela creme of the academic world and see life thru a rather narrow field of view. You can't talk to most of them. They have their mind made up and they generally adopt a very selfish position.

Bottom line: Comm's think they have a right to sell fish and no own should take that from them ever(regaurdless of the fishery status) They view recs as guys in their way and taking potential $ from their pockets.

Rec's hate to see anyone exploiting the fish but would like to be able to freely fish and take something home now and again. They view comms as greedy fishermen who would take every last fish if they could.

Conserv's don't give a damn about people or the economy, save the planet. Feel they have the high moral ground.

I don't think there is a happy medium. These "groups" will never agree...its like repub's vs dems', Israel and Palestine, its not a happy group. There is a lot of hatred, namecalling, finger pointing and general dislike between them.

IMO just shut it down all together. No sale, no take for the next decade right up the coast. Work on the bait problems without undue fishing pressure from anyone. Make it a C&R fishery. and while they are at it...Draggers must avoid all areas where SB swim...out to 15 miles. No dragging inshore ever.

Doublerunner · 12-08-2009, 02:34 PM

Gotta say I don't agree with this. If a guy is busting his hump and doing it legally then who are we to judge. This issue is not about individuals but about the resources that should be available equally and responsibly to all.

In many walks of life people do things to supplement their income, like many of the fishermen I know who make their own plugs which sometimes turns into a side job as they sell them. If you're good at it then people will want what you do. Nothing wrong with it.

Let's keep this about the resources and not about attacks on individuals

Canalman · 12-08-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doublerunner

Gotta say I don't agree with this. If a guy is busting his hump and doing it legally then who are we to judge. This issue is not about individuals but about the resources that should be available equally and responsibly to all.

In many walks of life people do things to supplement their income, like many of the fishermen I know who make their own plugs which sometimes turns into a side job as they sell them. If you're good at it then people will want what you do. Nothing wrong with it.

Let's keep this about the resources and not about attacks on individuals

Very good point.

My only beef is that I'm not making my plugs out of trees from the last forest on earth.