Hamas - Time for a dialogue?

[Nebe]

Just to play the devils advocate, imagine if we were all told that we had to move off of your property and be forced to live in a large comunity and controlled like cattle??

Have any of you people taken the time to think about what the palestinian cause is about???

[afterhours]

hamas is a terrorist organization randomly attacking and killing civilians while hiding amongst civilians. these are the most cowardly of people and should be eliminated now...anyone who sanctions their actions is not much better.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

hamas is a terrorist organization randomly attacking and killing civilians while hiding amongst civilians. these are the most cowardly of people and should be eliminated now...anyone who sanctions their actions is not much better.

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.

Originally Posted by slow eddie

perhaps in 1948, after the founding of the jewish state, the other arab states had taken these people in we would not be having this debate.

Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by likwid

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.



Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

Yeah because people who can barely afford food have cellphones right?

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by likwid

Yeah because people who can barely afford food have cellphones right?

they knew what was about to happen, ie: stay away from known targets.


a good start would be the palestinians electing a non- terrorist gov't.
i don't like anyone dying for no good reason especially innocents on both sides. only two solutions imho are annilation or deplomacy- i favor diplomacy. only thing in the way starting a meaningful diplomatic progress as i see it is the freekin' terrorists, if they were'nt lobbing rockets at israel this campaign would'nt be happening, just my .02

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

a good start would be the palestinians electing a non- terrorist gov't.

Same should be said for Israel.

[spence]

Originally Posted by afterhours

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

The IRA used to do the same thing, call in a warning before they'd blow up a pub.

This really isn't about protecting your people as much as it is about punishment. Israel isn't fighting a defined enemy, it's an insurgency of which they are partially responsible for helping to form (I'd note that you could say the exact same thing about our own "war on terror"). Any political solution will require giving something up so every so often they lash out.

Ultimately their actions will do more to build sympathy for the innocent killed and strengthen the position of Hamas who will claim to be defending them. You could say the same thing about Iraq (yea, you saw that coming).

So they level Gaza...to what end? Does anyone really think this will help keep Israel safer?

Or perhaps a better question...

What do you think is a reasonable end state for all of this? Two-state solution? Israel taking everything? Return to the 69 borders?

And remember, there are militants on both sides.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

What do you think is a reasonable end state for all of this? Two-state solution? Israel taking everything? Return to the 69 borders?



-spence

Don't know, they've had 60 years to figure it out.

I have a feeling Israel will take this to the limit this time ,militarily, to have the best upper hand possible in wahtever comes.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by likwid

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.



Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

The Iraeli army has been reverse 911'ing the private homes that surround buildings that are going to be bombed before they bomb them.

A war was fought and somebody lost. The losers lost thier land. Why doesn't this dialogue take place when fifty missiles a day were and are being shot into Israel by Hamas. Hamas is only using the residents in Gaza that are injured or killed in the worse possible way. Hamas mistreats and abuses thier fellow Gazans worst than the Israeli army does. The hide among them, fight among them, to turn public opinon against the Jews. Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

The Iraeli army has been reverse 911'ing the private homes that surround buildings that are going to be bombed before they bomb them.

I had read there were some examples of this but that it wasn't widespread.

A war was fought and somebody lost. The losers lost thier land.

Gross oversimplification. The counter argument is that militant Jewish settlers have been illegally taking land with or without war for 70 years. Granted, many of these settlements have been removed, but not without International pressure and in many cases the Jewish settlers have fought even the Israeli government.

Why doesn't this dialogue take place when fifty missiles a day were and are being shot into Israel by Hamas.

Underdogs often get to play by different rules. Go outside of the US Media and the rest of the world reports on the issue with much more sympathy for the Palestenian people.

People in the Middle East also give credit to those who fight the power regardless of their means or methods. Saddam certainly milked this and Bin Laden has been an expert of manipulating these emotions to gain support for his actions rather than methods.

Hamas is only using the residents in Gaza that are injured or killed in the worse possible way. Hamas mistreats and abuses thier fellow Gazans worst than the Israeli army does. The hide among them, fight among them, to turn public opinon against the Jews.

I'm sure a lot of the people are thankful that someone is standing up for them. This isn't a traditional army holding territory, they are in and among the people because that's the only place they can be. If anything it's out of necessity.

Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

Israel is more than capable of defending itsself. And I don't buy the fact that everybody is out to exterminate the Jews. Sure it's an easy political device to stoke the fires and get media attention, and this isn't to say that general anti-semitism isn't rampant among Arabs, but if this was really the case why doesn't Hamas or Iran strike at the Jews of say...New York City?

It is impossible to take a snapshot of the region and make any sense of it. This is a great dysfunction that's grown over time and both sides are to blame.

You could say the same for much of our own policy in the area. We seem to casually forget that there's history there, like things have just sprouted up overnight.

-spence

[Joe]

As far as the Arab world is concerned, there may as well be an American flag painted on the tanks and planes right next to the Israeli - they see no distinction between the policies of the U.S. and Israel.
The Palestinian question and our support of the Saudi regime are at the heart of instability in the region and terrorism throughout the world.
I don't think there is a solution. We're not going to talk to terrorists, the Israelis are not going to concede their land. Eventually the terrorists will exact a bloodbath via a weapon of mass destruction, we'll retaliate, and Gabriel will blow his horn.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Joe

The Palestinian question

I seem to remember a certain Nazi calling it the "The Jewish question" once upon a time too.

Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

Really? Other than the thrunting of an Iranian figurehead with no power, would you like to show us the irrefutable evidence of this?

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by spence

Underdogs often get to play by different rules.

-spence

Exactly. "Free socieities" must be necessarily constrained by their own civilized faculties - the rule of law, due process, human rights - when engaged in warfare against "terrorists". An Israeli judge framed it this way: "in defense of our way of life we sometimes have to fight with one hand bound behind our back, but let there be no question as to who has the upper hand".

[Joe]

All that type of rhetoric does is inspire another person to strap on a suicide belt and hop a bus.

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Just to play the devils advocate, imagine if we were all told that we had to move off of your property and be forced to live in a large comunity and controlled like cattle??

Have any of you people taken the time to think about what the palestinian cause is about???

Lets take a little trip back in time.

Doesn't seem so long ago when the PLO was squating in Jordan and King Hussein basically said get out and Arafat and his minions said no.As the PLO was marching on Amman,who saved them,those cattle controlling dreaded Jews ya'll seem to not to like all of sudden.

Devils' advocate my ass.As the grandson of those who were slaughtered by Muslim Turks in the Armenian Genocide how do you justify playing "devils' advocate" to someone like me or for that matter my father who witnessed it first hand?YOU CAN'T!!!

Have I taken the time to think what the Palestinian "cause" is about? You obvisiously have not.How does death to Jews sound?Its what Palestinians and most of the Arab world want.

In the end the motivating factor for all the death and destruction in the Middle East is religion and at this point in time that religion would be Islam.Another 50yrs it could be scientolgy,another 50yrs after that it could be something we've never heard of.

Piece is easy to obtain...stop fighting.But as long as people take sides there will always be a side to take and that my friend equals killing and destruction.

[Nebe]

Actually i agree with everyone here.. I was thinking about the greater plight of the palestinian cause and not just Hamas..

my bad fellas..

[saltfly]

the palestinians elected these people to run their state.how many times do you get stung by a bee before you decide to knock out the nest?

[Nebe]

exactly Saltfly- its like Afghanistan electing in Al queda to run the show..

The problem with Hamas is that they were able to get a lot of much needed money from outher countries to help build infrastructure...Probably from Iran... but this had a lot of pull with the Palestinian people.

[spence]

Hamas isn't just a terrorist organization, they are the primary provider of many basic services that the people can't live without.

To say we're "not going to negotiate with terrorists" is absurd and bad policy. Guess what? We do it all the time...it just makes us look stupid to the people we need to influence.

Hint: 3rd parties work pretty well.

We're fighting a proxy war with Iran and have been for some time. Let's actually admit it and start fixing the issues and perhaps we'll see some real improvement. 1) Place our own interests first and 2) work to end the dependence on Syria and Iran for aid.

Yes, Hamas provoked them this time and fired rockets, yes Isreal has the right to defend it's people...blah, blah, blah...

Doesn't change the fact that you have an entire generation of Arabs, most of whom are so full of rage towards the Occupation they see no other option but to fight.

That is the real problem.

-spence

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The problem with Hamas is that they were able to get a lot of much needed money from outher countries to help build infrastructure...Probably from Iran...

Hamas = Sunni
Iran = Shi'a

oops.

Try Saudi Arabia, our nice friends.

[likwid]

This is for you Swimmer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/op...lidi.html?_r=1

January 8, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
What You Don’t Know About Gaza
By RASHID KHALIDI

NEARLY everything you’ve been led to believe about Gaza is wrong. Below are a few essential points that seem to be missing from the conversation, much of which has taken place in the press, about Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip.

THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice. The majority of the 1.5 million people crammed into the roughly 140 square miles of the Gaza Strip belong to families that came from towns and villages outside Gaza like Ashkelon and Beersheba. They were driven to Gaza by the Israeli Army in 1948.

THE OCCUPATION The Gazans have lived under Israeli occupation since the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel is still widely considered to be an occupying power, even though it removed its troops and settlers from the strip in 2005. Israel still controls access to the area, imports and exports, and the movement of people in and out. Israel has control over Gaza’s air space and sea coast, and its forces enter the area at will. As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.

THE BLOCKADE Israel’s blockade of the strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006. Fuel, electricity, imports, exports and the movement of people in and out of the Strip have been slowly choked off, leading to life-threatening problems of sanitation, health, water supply and transportation.

The blockade has subjected many to unemployment, penury and malnutrition. This amounts to the collective punishment — with the tacit support of the United States — of a civilian population for exercising its democratic rights.

THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.

WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Rashid Khalidi, a professor of Arab studies at Columbia, is the author of the forthcoming “Sowing Crisis: The Cold War and American Dominance in the Middle East."


That last quote, how hitler-esq.