Question about casting / reel / line

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by FishermanTim

(This is based on a spinning reel, not a bait casting reel)

With most spinning rod/reel matchups, the first guide should be as close to the size of the spool as possible. If the spool is bigger than the guide, when the speed of the line being pulled off the spool begins to slow down, the braid can/will have the tendency to loop over the first guide. This could be a cause. If the lure is heavy enough, it can cause the line to fly off of the reel in loops that are larger than the guide, causing friction/resistance, and may also be the cause of the line catching on a guide. .

I hope this was helpful (to anyone).

Be careful here. What is happening to RIfoosball is that he is getting a guide loop 1/2 way out the rod, exactly because the first guide is too large. Guide systems need to handle braid differently than mono. Because of its memory and relative stiffness, mono needs to be gradually reduced as it travels out the rod, starting with a large first guide. Braid, however is too limp and prone to pile on itself as it meets each guide. High speed photos show loops of braid flopping ahead of the guide before they are pulled through. The goal with braid is to get it damped down and under control as quickly as possible. Hence new guide systems for rods dedicated to braid start with 1st guides about 1/2 the spool diameter, and quickly taper down to small guides (size 10 or smaller) out the rest of the rod. If you do not get braid under control quickly, as it meets a smaller guide (or even the tip top) out the rod, it overlaps the guide and breaks. That is the noise RIF is hearing, line ripping itself off the base of a guide. Switching to fireline helps because it is less limp, but the real answer is rewrapping the rod with smaller guides.

[kenyee]

Originally Posted by numbskull

rods dedicated to braid start with 1st guides about 1/2 the spool diameter, and quickly taper down to small guides (size 10 or smaller) out the rest of the rod.

Does that mean that if you fill a spin reel w/ braid, you can use it on a conventional rod if the 1st guide is half the spool diameter?

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by kenyee

Does that mean that if you fill a spin reel w/ braid, you can use it on a conventional rod if the 1st guide is half the spool diameter?

Sometimes. The longest casting guide setups are called Lowriders used on rods 11 feet and up, and the largest guide is often a 25mm, that typically is mounted more than 47" from the spool lip. These rods can be fished dual use (conventional or spinning). Most rods, however, use a shorter distance to the first guide, in which case elevation above the blank to prevent line slap becomes an issue. Also, the next two guides after the collector guide usually step down to smooth the transition to the first small guide on the rod (called the choke guide), so a spinner set up for braid is not the same as a standard conventional with a large first guide. In RIF's case, it is likely that the spool diameter is too small for the first guide, so the line sails through the first guide without being restricted, and collides with the second or third guide at high velocity and overwraps.

[ReelinRod]

Going smaller is the answer but it's not just the size of the guide, an even greater factor in eliminating guide wraps is distance of the first guide from the reel.

Moving the first guide out uses the effect of the payload straightening the line (and decreasing the contact angle of the line to the guide) to smooth line flow. Because the "coils" are smaller in diameter and longer in length the further from the reel, one can use smaller guides.

So, I am a big proponent of smaller guides on spinning rods using braid when matched with reels with the proper spool profile. Again it is best to be smaller rather than bigger; for top braid performance reels should have a small diameter (and in a perfect world, long and shallow). RIfoosball is in a better position to eliminate guide wraps with the use of the smaller diameter Penn 5500 then if he was using a big Greenie.

Casting performance is a fluid effect dependent on each component, reel, line, rod and guide design and layout and the interaction between them. If one wanted to build a drag racer it seems pointless to me to do the frame, transmission and engine work and then put a UPS box body on the chassis. Point being, blaming RI's problems on PowerPro is misapplying blame. Everything needs to work together and while a change to Fireline might lessen frequency the fundamental problem remains.

To the OP; if you would like to be even further confused there is another discussion of guide wraps on spinners and guide design and location over in the Rod Building Forum; check it out . . .

[Pt.JudeJoe]

All good points above. I think a 5500 is a little small for a 9 ft rod.

[Crafty Angler]

An old 650SS or a 6500SS might be a better match - I use a 650SS on a 10' Lamiglas 120-1L for plugs and it works pretty well

[numbskull]

Very well said, Reelin Rod. It seems that the reel manufacturers have quickly adapted to the need for new designs to get the most out of braided line, but the rod manufacturers (including most custom builders) are still putting out stuff that is at best a compromise to allow the use of both braid and mono....as well as accommodate many different sized reels. This results in a rod that is more tip heavy, less responsive, more problematic, and doesn't cast as far as one built solely to use braid. I expect that will soon change and companies like Shimano will introduce braid specific "Surf Systems". Seems like Lami has started in that direction with the SSU series, but even these rods have more and larger guides than necessary to still allow the use of mono without creating problems for braid.

[jimmy z]

Sometimes braid will dig in. And when you let the line out, you feel it undigging itself. That's all.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Very well said, Reelin Rod. It seems that the reel manufacturers have quickly adapted to the need for new designs to get the most out of braided line, but the rod manufacturers (including most custom builders) are still putting out stuff that is at best a compromise . . . .

Yes, reel technology is way ahead of rod & guide theory here in the States and the manufacturers are perpetuating the "stuck in the '80's" (or '70's or '60's) situation.

We Americans are the red-headed stepchild of the tackle world; the innovators, Daiwa and Shimano do not offer their top of the line tackle to the US market. Properly engineered braid rods are manufactured, they just are not a retail item here.

Our resistance to change is a big reason, marketability is a primary concern but Americans not being exposed to the last 25 years of tackle development has been detrimental to us. This also has permitted our US manufacturers to just rest on their laurels and not keep up with the rest of the world (i.e. Penn). Penn's last big design change was 20 years ago, following the Japanese lead with their SS line (skirted spool).

I wish I had a nickel for every "why's he using a conventional rod" quizzical look I've received on the beach. That a rod has to "look right" is a big part of the psyche of American fishermen and dog-gone it, spinners should have big guides!

The fishermen of Long Island and New England will probably be the last to embrace the newer technologies because of the specific tactics you guys use and the fact that your needs are being met. There is no pressing need for long casts so the reels are not that extreme; for most casters (and common rod lengths) old Spinfishers and VS do not allow the line velocities necessary to expose deficiencies in guide design and layout.

Another part of it is that the use of conventionals is more prevalent on your coasts; only matched I think by drum fishermen along the VA and NC shore. There again though is a difference in tackle demanded by tactics and conditions; the use of a 13 foot or longer rod would be considered ridiculous for most guys on LI or the Cape. On the Point nowadays, a 12'-6" rod is handicapping yourself .

Originally Posted by jimmy z

Sometimes braid will dig in. And when you let the line out, you feel it undigging itself. That's all.

There is a term, "braid friendly" that describes certain attributes designed into reels to deal with the idiosyncrasies of braid. One of the most fundamental is wrapping the line in a crossing pattern to eliminate the line digging in. You don't mention which reel you are using but I would say that it does not have engineered line wrapping and using thin braid does have issues.

This is a picture of a Daiwa Tournament S-6000T that shows engineered line lay (80lb braid casting leader, 20lb braid running line):