needle plug balance and beyond

[GattaFish]

Originally Posted by bluefishercat

This is the difference between the center of gravity and the center of bouyancy. It is a complicated thing to figure out in a boat never mind a little tiny fishing lure.

You should try it in an airplane,,,,

Ok. I am trying not going to get to technical,,, here is a picture,,, I did it quick so it is not the greatest explanation.

Imagine that this is the same exact floating needle made out of AYC,,, Look at the way it balances and then sits in the water.... The actual CG is way aft of the CB. Obviously because of weight or Density of the lure. Hence Dynamically unstable.

Now action comes from the way the lure moves through the water based on shape and stability.

To make it simple you need to find the point of dynamic instability (Weighted aft) This point is the point at which the object will continue to move away from the stable point with the stable point being that of no action. That dynamic instability is what gives it its action.

add a lip and start looking at fluid dynamics. and the way the water flows around the lip causing action.

[numbskull]

I don't think you want your needles to suspend/sink level (unless you shape the nose asymmetrically to provide lift/or intend to dead drift them) . The ability to control depth of retrieve comes from the planing action of the body. The action of a needle (i.e., those that swim) comes from the shape of the first 2" and angle at which that shape moves through the water (think of a tin squid and you'll see what is happening). The speed you need to retrieve them is a function of the lift provided by the body angle/length, and the total weight of the plug.

As complicated as this sounds, in my experience it doesn't matter much..............fish seem to like needles no matter how they swim or sink and I think the profile and movement is way more important than all the other stuff.

Glad to see you back at it, John.

[Tagger]

Hey John .. Glad to see you back .. I like your thinking ,, Nuts and bolts . I was thinking the same thing as Numby . Gotta add retrieve rate to the mix . You have to take them out and throw them ,slow retreive and see how they behave . I make one that I call "retrieve sensitvie " Basicly a slow sinker but rises and falls as retrieve varies. That I fish on a rocky beach (end of cast) in about max 12' of water.. Current ,same plug will just sit on top . Tough to make a bad needle ,weight wise ,, Its where you fish em .. I 'm making a small needle for when huge bass,that are on pin head sand eels and touching nothing eles , Chances of landing one is not as good,, because I had to down size hooks so much . I know that .. I don't really like fishing less than a 3/0 hook . The fish I'm targeting (not catching) I've been buying 6X lately also .. I don't know how those (Big Fish) Jersey guys catch large on Lefty size hooks ?? unless the fish is just inhaling the plug and on both hooks . once again you got me thinking again .. thanks .. Numby wants them to swim too .. I'm not there yet .. trying .

[steelhead]

I think where I'm going with this is that ideally, I want to have the cg/cb be the same. That gives me a very dynamic instability and perfect balance. From there, I can tune the sink rate and attitude of the plug.

What got me thinking about this was some experiences I had last summer in two situations. One was on a beach north of here where I encountered large sand eels and bass feeding on them at night. The needle that worked best was quite neutral and rode very flat. Given that sand eels are weak swimmers and from what I've seen on film, tend to flutter and float and sink slowly to the bottom, this plug seemed to let me match that behavior the best.

The other was ocean front, rocky shoreline, little current, letting the plug suspend trying to imitate the short, hesitant movement of a bait fish as it swims through the water. In this situation, the retrieve that worked best was to put myself in the head of the bait fish. working it slowly and very erratically.

Although I don't quite follow you on the tin squid, somewhere in there, Numbskull, I think that you're right, there's a head shape that will add a natural swimming action to the mix. I'm going to have to play with that, too.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by steelhead

Although I don't quite follow you on the tin squid, somewhere in there, Numbskull, I think that you're right, there's a head shape that will add a natural swimming action to the mix. I'm going to have to play with that, too.

The curve on the underside of a tin squid makes the body act like a swimming plate. The weight of the rear of the squid gives it stability and sets the angle at which water hits the swimming curve. I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with needles. My experience is that the longer you make the nose, the less likely it is to swim. Still, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think Flap is right. He usually outfishes me by reeling his plug across the surface like a motorboat while he makes a Brrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm......brrrrrrrrrrrrmmmm sound.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by numbskull

The curve on the underside of a tin squid makes the body act like a swimming plate. The weight of the rear of the squid gives it stability and sets the angle at which water hits the swimming curve. I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with needles. My experience is that the longer you make the nose, the less likely it is to swim. Still, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think Flap is right. He usually outfishes me by reeling his plug across the surface like a motorboat while he makes a Brrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm......brrrrrrrrrrrrmmmm sound.

I thought we had agreed to keep the Brmmmmmm...Brmmmmmm.. sound part our little secret?