A Day Without Immigrants!

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by spence

Horse hockey.

Aside from the logistical issues of deporting 11 million people, you have to replace their jobs with legal workers who are protected by different state and federal laws.

The impact to our economy would be devistating and impossible to counter...Unless you have a 100 year plan...

-spence

It would not be devestating at all, and I already handed you a place to get these workers, and do not have to be protected by anything, you do know minimum wage is more than 2 bucks a day right? The ACI workers get paid less than illegals already, and there is absolutely no shortage of inmates in the USA. Sure it would be hard to deport 11 million people, but if we do not, then we might as well burn our constitution and bill of rights as they mean nothing. We were able to invade and occupy two countrys in less than 2 years, and they had weapons! You mean to tell me our armed forces could not make a huge dent in the illegal alien problem in our own country? You gravely underestimate the power we wield.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ScottC

It would not be devestating at all, and I already handed you a place to get these workers, and do not have to be protected by anything, you do know minimum wage is more than 2 bucks a day right? The ACI workers get paid less than illegals already, and there is absolutely no shortage of inmates in the USA. Sure it would be hard to deport 11 million people, but if we do not, then we might as well burn our constitution and bill of rights as they mean nothing. We were able to invade and occupy two countrys in less than 2 years, and they had weapons! You mean to tell me our armed forces could not make a huge dent in the illegal alien problem in our own country? You gravely underestimate the power we wield.

I love it, your reference for feesability are two military actions where the desired outcome ended up killing tens of thousands of innocent people

And according to the DOJ there are only about 2.1 million inmates, not quite the numbers necessary for your plan. Given you probably don't want the harder criminals out in the fields, the pool is quite a bit smaller than that.

Besides, what would happen if crime rates fell! Would we have to enact tougher laws to ensure the prison population was able to supply the needed people-power to keep the produce flowing

-spence

[beamie]

This issue is very easy.

No one is against LEGAL immigration. That is what this country is about.

It is the immigrants who are here ILLEGALLY who want to side step the process that is the problem.

If I were an immigrant going through the process legally I'd be pissed.

Heard an immigrant on the radio this morning going thru the process legally was asked if he'd go to war for the country. He said yes but he wasn't a citizen. I THINK WHAT ALLOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A CITIZEN TO BE IN THE ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES OR COAST GAURD. but you do have to be a legal. That is a great loophole to becoming a citizen is join the military for a number of years, you'll get your citizenship through them.

[timf]

Spence,

Where are you getting your numbers for the monies that illegals put into US? All kidding/bitching aside, I truly would like to read this.

One irrefutable fact is that all border states are having huge financial problems due in large part (not 100%) in the drain illegal immigrants put on the local economy. Here is some information from a non-partisan (have not vetted them on this count) group:

QUOTE
The small picture, too, is a concern, said Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies. Although he concedes that definite benefits for some specific sectors of the economy come from the illegal workforce, the overall costs to American citizens outweighs the benefits of illegal immigration.

"There's no question that illegal immigration, that unskilled immigration of all kinds, is a losing proposition," Krikorian said.

Krikorian's group just released a study this week that says illegal immigration is most harming the unskilled sector of the labor force. Krikorian said it shows current U.S. immigration policy isn't looking out for its own citizens.

A study of Census Bureau data revealed that while U.S. unemployment is under 5 percent, unemployment among high school dropouts is 14 percent and among those with only a high school education is about 7 percent, he said.

Krikorian said that shows that despite the claims otherwise, for non-immigrants "there isn't full employment in the low-skilled labor market."

Krikorian said that until immigration policy changes, the problem boils down to a simple point — low-wage citizen workers are being crowded out of low-pay jobs by illegal immigrants.
END QUOTE

tim

[Skitterpop]

We are all immigrants.....

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Indanite

We are all immigrants.....

You and I are LEGAL, our familys came to this country by following the rules and doing it through the legal proccess. Can't say the same thing about the mexicans hopping the fences now can we? This is NOT about LEGAL imigrants!! this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US. Why is this so hard for people to understand??? Its so simple yet folks make it so freakin complicated. Or they are PC people who are afraid they might offend someone. I think that is the most likely scenerio.

[Nebe]

I heard Rush Limbaugh wants to round up all the illegal aliens, and make gasoline additives out of them.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US.

Skippy, do you speed?

-spence

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by Skip N

You and I are LEGAL, our familys came to this country by following the rules and doing it through the legal proccess. Can't say the same thing about the mexicans hopping the fences now can we? This is NOT about LEGAL imigrants!! this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US. Why is this so hard for people to understand??? Its so simple yet folks make it so freakin complicated. Or they are PC people who are afraid they might offend someone. I think that is the most likely scenerio.

Quoted for absolute truth. All my ancestors were imigrants as well, my grandparents were not born here, but they did it the right way, and that is all we are asking, do it right so you can fit properly into our structured system

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by Skip N

You and I are LEGAL, our familys came to this country by following the rules and doing it through the legal proccess. Can't say the same thing about the mexicans hopping the fences now can we? This is NOT about LEGAL imigrants!! this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US. Why is this so hard for people to understand??? Its so simple yet folks make it so freakin complicated. Or they are PC people who are afraid they might offend someone. I think that is the most likely scenerio.

No..... we just slaughtered and infected with diseases the people who lived here for thousands and thousands of years before WE DISCOVERED AMERICA.

[spence]

It's a number I've seen used several times...although I'm sure it's a pro-immigration source...I've also read that the Social Security Administration alone attributes about 7 Billion in taxes to illegal or undocumented people.

I'd completely agree that some communities shoulder much more of the burden than others...

Also, I'm not arguing that illegal immigration is a good thing or that there's parity between give and take...

Rather, that there is a tremendous input into our economy by illegal workers, and they they aren't going anywhere soon. Any feesable long-term solution must take these factors into account.

-spence

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by spence

It's a number I've seen used several times...although I'm sure it's a pro-immigration source...I've also read that the Social Security Administration alone attributes about 7 Billion in taxes to illegal or undocumented people.

I'd completely agree that some communities shoulder much more of the burden than others...

Also, I'm not arguing that illegal immigration is a good thing or that there's parity between give and take...

Rather, that there is a tremendous input into our economy by illegal workers, and they they aren't going anywhere soon. Any feesable long-term solution must take these factors into account.

-spence

Yeah unfortunatly anything short of extremly drastic measures will not help at all. We have let it get too far out of hand.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ScottC

Yeah unfortunatly anything short of extremly drastic measures will not help at all. We have let it get too far out of hand.

Drastic measures will just upset the apple cart...there's an economic interest here as well.

The current situation has "evolved" into something quite gray. We need to segment the problems and attack them individually.

For instance, an open border and business desiring the cheap labor are certainly related...but they don't necessarily have the same solution.

-spence

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, your reference for feesability are two military actions where the desired outcome ended up killing tens of thousands of innocent people

And according to the DOJ there are only about 2.1 million inmates, not quite the numbers necessary for your plan. Given you probably don't want the harder criminals out in the fields, the pool is quite a bit smaller than that.

Besides, what would happen if crime rates fell! Would we have to enact tougher laws to ensure the prison population was able to supply the needed people-power to keep the produce flowing

-spence

People died because they were fighting invaders of their country, we will not be fighting on a battle field.

even if we don;t have the 11 million to directly replace the illegalls, atleast we have a starting point to deal with a two front problem. gettting rid of illegals, and helping ease the strain Prisioners put on us. And by the time the crime rate falls, all those illegals should be here legally And don't forget, out of those 11 millin illegas, how many are working adn how many are thier childeren? It is safe to say that is we booted 11 million illegals, there will not be 11 million jobs to fill, and if there is, then hey, looks like we will ave a reason to get them here quicker legally, so in the end everyone wins.

Also, atleast I am trying to come up with a solution, not just lying down and giving up. Ths country was built on the notion that anything is possible if you work hard enough.

[Notaro]

My ex-girlfriend jsut got her citizenship and her mom and brother hasn't gotten their yet. They have been here for more than five years when leaving Vietnam. So should they be deported, too?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Notaro

My ex-girlfriend jsut got her citizenship and her mom and brother hasn't gotten their yet. They have been here for more than five years when leaving Vietnam. So should they be deported, too?

It depends, how good is her mom's pho?

-spence

[Notaro]

Originally Posted by spence

It depends, how good is her mom's pho?

-spence

Funny, man.

Long story. I don't know what's happening to them now. She and I are not talking anymore. I haven't tasted her mom's pho. She works two jobs and her brother is working at the Whoel Foods makret in Newton and attending Mt. Ida college. I don't think that they are doing anythign wrong. They got their own jobs and are working their assess off to become full-pledged citizens. They were sponsored by her aunt and aren't in touch with each other for some reasons.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Notaro

I don't think that they are doing anythign wrong. They got their own jobs and are working their assess off to become full-pledged citizens.

What's their immigration status?

-spence

[Notaro]

Originally Posted by spence

What's their immigration status?

-spence

No idea.

[ScottC]

Spence, seeing you like to cut and paste your posts, I figured I would go straight to the government site and get some info: taken right from this site

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

If you read the site is also has some positive points as well, so this is not a biased study by no means, like they don;t collect that much welfare, well they can;t they are illegal, thy don't collect must SS either..they can;t they are illegal. this is site pretty damn good.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ScottC

Spence, seeing you like to cut and paste your posts, I figured I would go straight to the government site and get some info: taken right from this site

Straight to the Government site? What pray tell "government" are you talking about???

This is a think tank aimed at reducing immigration.

-spence

[Jimbo]

I keep saying I'm done with this then I get sucked back in. I think The Dad maybe right, but I guess in order to continue to post if I want to, I just have to make some suggestions as to solutions to the problem and I'm good to go. OK, I was just thinking, maybe make a degree of difficullty rating for any illegal immigrant who is caught. If he just climbed through a hole in a fence, hey, where's the creativity or danger in that, but if he built a human catapault and shot himself over the fence and landed unharmed in the US, well hey, I admire that kind of spunk. "OK, tell me again, you swam over, at night, in shark infested waters disguised in a seal outfit???? You are so in my brother, welcome to America."
Part of the reason this menagerie can't come up with a reasonable solution is because I don't imagine alot of us have any experience or background in writing international policy. To even fathom the volumes of intertwining solutions it would take to make that happen is incomprehensible to me, but I believe the lawmakers could do it if they put their minds to it.
While I don't condone the actions of illegal immigrants sneaking into the country, and I can understand, for example, how they or anyone who doesn't get health insurance and their abuse of the system ends up costing me money, but at the same time, I don't see that the guy who sneaks in, if he's not a criminal, just looking for something better for his family, probably won't ever have much better a quality of life than the one he crossed the border for, and isn't likely to be getting a top management job, or any job for that matter that isn't pretty near the bottom of the employment barrell and only because it was probably scoffed at by some out of work citizen who felt it was beneath him to do, how do I convince myself that illegal alien doesn't deserve to be given a break.