OTW "Striper Cup Tourney" Format is Irresponsible to the Fishery

[stiff tip]

NIB.... i could,nt say it better myself ...the other rag does the samething .in i have yet to see PETA at there front door ...some guys refuse to see a good intent ,and only see negativity..i dont think like that .. cause i,m 7 1/2yrs old ,,,and i,m a big boy.......dave...

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by stiff tip

.. cause i,m 7 1/2yrs old ,,,and i,m a big boy.......dave...

What the hell does this mean?

Did you find that album?

[Bedford Blues]

Fishing for Bass should not be made a competitive event.
the Stiper population is no where near the level of the 1950's
or 1960's and early 70's. i like OTW but this is a mistake.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by Bedford Blues

Fishing for Bass should not be made a competitive event.
the Stiper population is no where near the level of the 1950's
or 1960's and early 70's. i like OTW but this is a mistake.

Yeah, your right about that. The current population is much higher than it was back then!

[BigFish]

Fishing for bass is and has been a competitive event for some time! All the clubs have a club derby to my knowledge...MSBA, RISSA, MBBA, Plum Island to name a few.......all require fish be weighed and measured on certified scales....no catch and release there! How many of you nay sayers fish your club derbies? Explain to me the difference one from the other?

[Krispy]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Explain to me the difference one from the other?

Cumulative year-long poundage. Whichever club kills the most fish wins.
DZ made a great suggestion in having clubs only submit the top 7 or 5 or 3 fish, that way anything not meeting the mark doesnt need to be killed.
I would really like to fish this tournament, but have reservations with the club fish kill, and the early ending time frame
Actually, re-reading the rules, I'll probly just enter as an individual. I interested in seeing what others "sharpies" are actually catching in the surf

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Krispy

Cumulative year-long poundage. Whichever club kills the most fish wins.
DZ made a great suggestion in having clubs only submit the top 7 or 5 or 3 fish, that way anything not meeting the mark doesnt need to kill it.
I would really like to fish this tournament, but have reservations with the club fish kill, and the early ending time frame
Actually, re-reading the rules, I'll probly just enter as an individual. I interested in seeing what others "sharpies" are actually catching in the surf

In the schaefer clubs were allowed to enter only the ten top fish caught for each eligible species ( Bass, Bluefish, Cod and Weakfish, which were on the list, then off, then on again) per month. Therefore, the fish had to be big in order to garner the points and surf fish were worth two points as opposed to boat fish at one point. 90% of the Schaefer weigh stations were fish markets. As most back then sold thier catch. Not only "commercial" rod and reelers but Mom and Pop and the uncle Bob and whoever caught fish. A very small majority didn't.

I write for OTW, I am not in thier employ and had no input nor would I try to force my views upon them. I know how I will fish. I will not be entering every over 34 inch fish I catch. If I happen to take a big one, ie way over 30 lbs, it's in. If I don't, no biggie. I catch many fish each year, a reasonable guess would be over a thousand or more, it ain't hard to catch a hundred in a day in some of the places I and some friends fish, just ask Stiff tip.

In converstion with Bob Pond many years ago at the Worcester Show and several occasions after that, I asked him what he thought was the biggest threat to bass and he answered "Acid rain, chemical run-off of fertilizers in Chesapeake, pollution in the Hudson". He went on to explain how his number one concern, acid rain, was not allowing the fertilized eggs to develop. That was the basic premise of his Stripers Unlimited work. In that he was ahead of his time and finally like the return of the Osprey to the Chesapeake watershed, the bass rebounded also, due to the reduction of acid rain and chemical run-off. He never mentioned tournaments to me and I spoke with him at length many many times. One has only to research the year with low acid rain occurences in April in the Chesapeake and it's correlation to high YOY indexes to see the link.

Mr. Saltheart, your reference to Bob Pond is based on conjecture and not fact and he himself would tell you that for Bob Pond is an honest man who plainly stated fact and did not bend the facts as they came to light to further his purpose. He was right on his theory, and for that we shall always be grateful.

[Saltheart]

I think we want to stay focused on the impact to the fishery. I don't want this thread turning into a "we hate OTW thread". I think its a fine Magazine that hasn't thought the format through well in terms of being conservation minded.

I would suggest that all the club stuff is fine and the individual stuff is all exciting and both should increase overall interest which is good. . Just figure out a way to keep score without needing people to kill so many fish.

I think something like a max entry of 5 fish per person over the whole tournament. You might even further say 1 per month for a total of five , that would rteduce the kill even further but might be squeezing the fun part too much

I'm sure there are lots of other ideas . Keep the posts about the potential fish kill and what to do about it , and give the magazine people a break.

[BigFish]

I will be looking for that one nice fish per month......I catch alot of fish but don't lay claim to being a cow killer/catcher......I will be lucky to catch anything worth weighing in knowing full well it will take a fish over 50 pounds to compete overall anyway....so I don't see my catch and kill habit changing in the least......I only keep 2 or 3 fish anyway all season.....and I won't keep a fish to tally overall points anyway as I don't really care for that type of thing. I will be keeping that one nice fish if I am fortunate enough but otherwise I will keep only a couple for the table. I enjoy the camraderie with my fellow fishermen.....this can be a fun event if we treat it right!

[Raven]

bigfish.... you have learned the true essence of fishing.

[Swimmer]

that most of us only dream about catching a 30 #, 40#, or a 50# FISH. Give OTW a chance at working out the kinks before your wedgie causes blood loss to the extremities.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

that most of us only dream about catching a 30 #, 40#, or a 50# FISH. .

If every fish over 15lbs HAD to be released, I think your dream would be alot more likely to come true. Killing the largest and most fertile members of a species is not the way you make more large fish. Ensuring that smaller fish have more chance to breed, creates a smaller strain of fish. Ensuring the least efficent breeders breed, creates less fish. Why is that so hard for recreational fisherman to understand?

[spence]

Guys, I think you took my statement the wrong way. I'm not blaming OTW for beeing greedy, just perhaps shortsighted...

-spence

[piemma]

I believe there was no ill intent on the part of OTW. They just didn't think the whole thing through. I have written to Chris in the past an gotten replies that may not have agreed with me but were his opinion, which is fine. Send him emails or write or call and let your feeling about the tournament be heard. i think they will respond. They don't want a war with their readers.
Let's let calmer heads prevail.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by piemma

I believe there was no ill intent on the part of OTW. They just didn't think the whole thing through. I have written to Chris in the past an gotten replies that may not have agreed with me but were his opinion, which is fine. Send him emails or write or call and let your feeling about the tournament be heard. i think they will respond. They don't want a war with their readers.
Let's let calmer heads prevail.

I never received a response to my 2 e-mails from last year's "OTW" controversial issue.

[shadow]

there not going to answer every e-mail sent espesaly if there geting flooded with hundreds on the the same issue.As far as the tournament goes NIB said it best,I love the idea they just need to change the rules so less fish are killed.

[Rip Runner]

The only thing I can't figure out is that the OTW folks don't want people to send in any pictures of fish that have been taken/killed. They only want pictures of fish that are alive and look like they will be released. I understand this and the reason that they only want pictures in their magazine that look healthy for the fishery and the sport. But now they sponsor a kill tournament?

The folks that run OTW are good guys, so I'm sure they can make some changes to the tourney before it begins.

[Mr. Sandman]

I can't imagine how you would run a C&R tourny and control cheating. Esp when it comes to cars and boats as prizes. I bet guys are coming up with cheating schemes as we speak.

The few big boat tournys that are run as C&R require a certified observer on board. I doubt you surf guys will hire an observer to watch out fish.


Once the prizes get big, cheating becomes a real problem. Kill contests are the only way to insure a fair contest. Even then it is tough. Killing a fish is not a sin. God put them on earth for us to eat. BESIDES according to OTW's own recent documents, you could not weigh a fish over 20# an let it go alive, it will die. 100% dead a given fact, so you may as well eat it.

[Megabyte]

Sounds like OTW turned this tournament over to a publicity firm to run the tournament. Trying to make it the best that they could. someone just didn't realize the impact that it was going to have.

I don't believe that OTW is any less concerned about BASS than anyone on this site. No BASS not much OTW.

My hunch is there is going to be a board room meeting very shortly to revise the tournament to make it much better (for the bass).

We need to express our concerns but in a constructive way and directly to OTW. They have tooooooo much to loose.

If the rules aren't modified, we'll just sick CLAMMER on them!

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

My concern would be with the yahoos and weekend warriors that read the magazine.The ones that have no clue about C+R,conservation,etc.The ones that can't even tie a knot. .

You mean the ones that stretch a tape measure every which way from Sunday over a 28 -1/1000" fish? And keep two rats a fraction of an inch over the limit?

Look at the bright side--if they enter, they'll at least be keeping two fish that probably already had a chance to spawn once. Maybe they'll actually start releasing anything under 34".

[Mr. Sandman]

I think the entire C&R thing has gone too far. It is not doing anyone any good not even the fish. It is time to bring back catch and keep. According to many "scientific" articles all the fish you release just die anyany so you may as well keep them.

If we don't takem the comm guys will...take all you can while the going is good.

BTW, the 1980s was the best bass fishing in history!!! More large fish were caught then (including several state and world records) then any time in history.

According to official numbers we have too many bass anyway and nothing is in danger because of the fantastic job that the marine fisher depart's do. Go get em! Worry about any problems later.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman

BTW, the 1980s was the best bass fishing in history!!! More large fish were caught then (including several state and world records) then any time in history.

According to official numbers we have too many bass anyway and nothing is in danger because of the fantastic job that the marine fisher depart's do. Go get em! Worry about any problems later.

Yes, all there was was big bass, very poor YOY indices, and the fishery collapsed.

Indanite - I'm guessing you have not made up your mind because I can't see which side of the fence you're going to fall off of...

Let's keep this thread as good DEBATE. There is a lot of discussion on this that deserves hashing out more.

I'm pretty confident that OTW had no desire to create a "Kill Tourney" but instead was looking to recreate one of the greatest east coast tourneys in history, the Schaeffer Tournament. While I am personally encouraged by a regional Tourney (undecided if S-B participates as a team - on another thread) I am concerned about the potential fishery impact. Sure, there are plenty of "meat" tourneys around that just about all of us particpate in, typically weeklong / weekend tourneys like MDA, MSBA, Boston Harbor, etc.

So is the question that people would like to see OTW modify & reduce the "Kill Quotient"? And if so, HOW would you recommend it be done?

Increased minimum size ? Not fair to a lot of the noobs or those that can't target in best areas / methods (not that they would win anyway, but they could participate)

Max total of fish weighed in? Set a limit of X amount of fish per month? Set a limit of X amount of fish per person per TOURNEY?

What can be done to make this more conservation friendly?

I am supportive of a Tourney, but I would like to see modifications to reduce the pressure of this tourney and would like to see it further discussed. And, yes, don't look forward to see people cheating in it...

One more thing that I am sure will pi$$ some people off - commercial striped-bass permit holders should not be allowes to submit a fish during their open season. I know, it sucks, start the flame wars, but there is an advantage for them...


BTW - Harpoon makes my favorite beer in the world, doesn't mean I'm going to lay down on the tourney for it ~ regardless of how close it is...

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman

BTW, the 1980s was the best bass fishing in history!!! More large fish were caught then (including several state and world records) then any time in history.

According to official numbers we have too many bass anyway and nothing is in danger because of the fantastic job that the marine fisher depart's do. Go get em! Worry about any problems later.

I think you know what I meant by referring back to the 1980's. You know - the time in the 1980's when few could even catch a bass.

That's a pretty cavalier attitude - "worry about any problems later"...

[King Neptune]

Mass, RI & CT regulations clearly state that anglers are allowed 2 fish at 28” per angler per day. That’s 14 fish per week. If someone really wanted to, they can keep over 300 bass a season. Does anyone keep that many fish? No. But according to the marine biologists that come up with these #’s, the population would, theoretically, be able to handle it.
In my opinion, harvesting fish can be good for a species. Many fisheries encourage keeping fish, and if regulated properly, leads to a healthier population.
Take a look at deer hunting. Overpopulation leads to malnourished deer that can’t survive the winter. Hunting leads to bigger, healthier deer.
Weighing in 2 fish a week over an 18 week tournament will not make stripers extinct. Just as we are all allowed to keep 14 fish a week, no one really does, and I don’t think there will be many people weighing in 2 fish every week in this tournament, just to win a trophy. I think the two fish-per-week rule is a good limit, and is far more conservation-minded than many other tournaments (take a look at the MV derby). Let’s say you hook up a 35-pounder on Monday, and then land a 50 on Friday. How are you going to feel letting go a fish that might get you the key to a Grady White?

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by King Neptune

Mass, RI & CT regulations clearly state that anglers are allowed 2 fish at 28” per angler per day. That’s 14 fish per week. If someone really wanted to, they can keep over 300 bass a season. Does anyone keep that many fish? No. But according to the marine biologists that come up with these #’s, the population would, theoretically, be able to handle it.

Yes the regulations clearly state that BUT assuming if everyone were able to catch and then to take 2 legal fish per day / 14 per week, there would be a SIGNIFICANT impact on the fishery.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the state allocations are based on perceived pressure as there are not landing receipts from every angler on every trip to give hard numbers. So they use their estimates from their dosckside / shoreside studies and guestimate a total catch and compare that to what they feel the biomass can manage and be sustainable. A couple years ago they might say to Mass DMF that they can allocatate for grins and giggles 1 million pounds of bass and Mass then would need to come up with regulations to meet that target. For years Mass had 1 fish @ 28 inches and based on the numbers available at the time, Mass had an uncaught balance of about 14% under the quota. So Mass for example could have added 2 fish @ 28 for say 3 months of the season as they felt that would use the last 14% of their allowable quota. When Mass went to 2 @ 28 they felt the chances of one person keeping the second fish was significantly less than keeping the first. And they assigned some number like 10% of trips would catch a keeper in the first place...

Sorry for the ramble but 2 fish per day per angler for 7 days a week for the entire season would really harm the fishery.

[NIB]

[QUOTE=JohnR].

Correct me if I'm wrong but the state allocations are based on perceived pressure as there are not landing receipts from every angler on every trip to give hard numbers. So they use their estimates from their dosckside / shoreside studies and guestimate a total catch and compare that to what they feel the biomass can manage and be sustainable. QUOTE]


We call this Vodoo math.Every yr.in Vodoo math they are able to minipulate the numbers in order to give us the the Maximun sustainable yield.In nj we where able to go back to 2 fish because of a .01 percent difference in Vodoo math.Although i see more bigger fish today i think the past few yrs the fisherey has gotten worse.Its hard to support a tourney that promotes a 2 per week kill totals.

Sorry, I love tourneys and The pins could mean something to someone when I'm long gone (probably not but u never know)but at 2 per week for 16 weeks its tough.on the individual side I think someone could easily do 32-20 lbers as a average.Thats 640lbs.That could be a conservitive amount.take a small number in a NE tournament like 100 anglers,say they average 500 lbs.Thats just the individual end.when u add in clubs an do the math across it adds up quick.Will it make a difference in the 9 million taken in Mass according to the vodoo math.Who can say for sure.Its just not the type of thing I feel I should be supporting.The downside is not a option for me striper fishing is my life.I agree the tournament needs a numbers limit, DZ suggested 3 for the clubs.U could do the same for the individual i think That limits the lottery.It is for the grand prize part a lottery anyways.Perhaps top 5 would'nt hurt either clubs an individual..I thought the old tourney had some kinda numbers limit for the clubs like top 10.??
I think ball type lottery thing for inividual would be most fair.Like the NBA Draft lottery #1 angler gets 10 balls an #2 gets 9 an so on.Some simple minds are thinkin what about ties an so on.U don't have to use balls. It can be done with a computer to work out the finer calculations of a multiple entries format.More than just weigh one in over 35 lbs an get a chance to win.This method rewards the top angler with the best chance.If I weigh in 8- 30's why should someone who gets one have the same chance.thats the way it is as far as I see it.
They more than likely won't make any changes this yr.Guess I will have to wait till next yr

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Yes the regulations clearly state that BUT assuming if everyone were able to catch and then to take 2 legal fish per day / 14 per week, there would be a SIGNIFICANT impact on the fishery.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the state allocations are based on perceived pressure as there are not landing receipts from every angler on every trip to give hard numbers. So they use their estimates from their dosckside / shoreside studies and guestimate a total catch and compare that to what they feel the biomass can manage and be sustainable. A couple years ago they might say to Mass DMF that they can allocatate for grins and giggles 1 million pounds of bass and Mass then would need to come up with regulations to meet that target. For years Mass had 1 fish @ 28 inches and based on the numbers available at the time, Mass had an uncaught balance of about 14% under the quota. So Mass for example could have added 2 fish @ 28 for say 3 months of the season as they felt that would use the last 14% of their allowable quota. When Mass went to 2 @ 28 they felt the chances of one person keeping the second fish was significantly less than keeping the first. And they assigned some number like 10% of trips would catch a keeper in the first place...

Sorry for the ramble but 2 fish per day per angler for 7 days a week for the entire season would really harm the fishery.

John,
Not quite right. Striped bass is managed on a coastwide basis, i.e. there is no allocation of the quota to any individual state. ASMFC sets the maximum creel limit, all states have the option to use a more restrictive limit. But your main point is correct, in that effort is factored into the equasion and if all fishermen went out and killed two fish a day, it would have a severe detrimental impact on the fishery.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

John,
Not quite right. Striped bass is managed on a coastwide basis, i.e. there is no allocation of the quota to any individual state. ASMFC sets the maximum creel limit, all states have the option to use a more restrictive limit. But your main point is correct, in that effort is factored into the equasion and if all fishermen went out and killed two fish a day, it would have a severe detrimental impact on the fishery.

Actually - I reread my post and it was a little wishy-washy but correct where it talks about how the states managed quotas before Ammendment 6 hence the "couple years ago". This is what allowed Mass to have a 1/day with a a bonus period so to speak with a time for 2/day under the old rules - they chose not to implement it but they could have... Also allowed other states to implement slot limits. All were based on allowable numbers from ASMFC with the state to decide how to achieve under that quota.

[Mr. Sandman]

The boat guys have this locked up.. I don't think you realize how many big fish these guys take ***per day***. tons of 20's lots of 30#ers a few 40's and some of the hotshots take a 50+ once or so each season. A surf fish winning this thing is a long shot. And they DO cull out smaller fish, few take a fish less then 20# to the market. So they will weigh in the fish, then take it to market .

Removing myself from this thread, I am getting too much email about it.

[spence]

Originally Posted by King Neptune

But according to the marine biologists that come up with these #’s, the population would, theoretically, be able to handle it.

I'd wager there's simply no way this could be true. The difference in scale is so huge the formula must be weighted to compensate.

Originally Posted by King Neptune

Let’s say you hook up a 35-pounder on Monday, and then land a 50 on Friday. How are you going to feel letting go a fish that might get you the key to a Grady White?

I think this sums up the entire thread pretty well.

-spence