Anybody get their On The Water yet?

[Max Power]

For a long time now I have over heard many people who are critical of fish tagging as they say it contributes to the fish mortality rate. So Mike I was curious as to if the study found any corralation between the tagging of fish and mortality? If not what is you expert oppinion on the subject?

[Backbeach Jake]

Good article, just what was needed before the season begins. It's amazing the rough handling you see out there. Good job!

[MakoMike]

Max,
The Aussies didn't study that. But my opinion is that, if the tagging is doen correctly and quickly, it should not increase the mortality of the fish. Having said that, I do think that things like the ALS tags do increase mortality, since most of the guys doing the tagging don't 1) do it quickly and 2) learn how to do it properly.

[Flaptail]

Mike, it was well written. I have to say though that I find, what with all the years I have been fishing, that a study by the Australians, which might fit a lot of species, has real knowledge of the anatomical make-up of a Striped Bass. The Striper is a fish desgined for rough conditions. I have caught them over mussell beds where they were scraping the things off of the bottom making thier lower jaws red and their undeside as well, they crush seas clams and I have caught them as they were rolling over rocks along the Elizabeths temporarily out of the water stranded on the rock itself while chasing a plug. I have a friend, who on Martha's Vineyard has caught tagged, photographed and released fish, one very large one included and has, a year to the day later, re-caught the very same fish alive and well.

On the flats of Barnstable we catch and realease bass by the hundreds. Shallow water and crystal clear where you can see each and every fish. We lip gaff the bigger ones and lip the smaller ones with our hands each and ervery time we fish there. Wouldn't we see a lot of dead fish if every one released did as the Aussie's report, meaning die?

I am not trying to demean your article, it's that I beleive that bass are much more resistant to the riggors of being handled than the Aussie study would leave us to believe they would be. It's a species by species thing.

[Flaptail]

It should have read "no real Knowledge".

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Mike, it was well written. I have to say though that I find, what with all the years I have been fishing, that a study by the Australians, which might fit a lot of species, has real knowledge of the anatomical make-up of a Striped Bass. The Striper is a fish desgined for rough conditions. I have caught them over mussell beds where they were scraping the things off of the bottom making thier lower jaws red and their undeside as well, they crush seas clams and I have caught them as they were rolling over rocks along the Elizabeths temporarily out of the water stranded on the rock itself while chasing a plug. I have a friend, who on Martha's Vineyard has caught tagged, photographed and released fish, one very large one included and has, a year to the day later, re-caught the very same fish alive and well.

On the flats of Barnstable we catch and realease bass by the hundreds. Shallow water and crystal clear where you can see each and every fish. We lip gaff the bigger ones and lip the smaller ones with our hands each and ervery time we fish there. Wouldn't we see a lot of dead fish if every one released did as the Aussie's report, meaning die?

I am not trying to demean your article, it's that I beleive that bass are much more resistant to the riggors of being handled than the Aussie study would leave us to believe they would be. It's a species by species thing.

I don't think that there is much doubt that some species are more resilient than others. I also think that there isn't much doubt as to the effects of gravity. The fact that you didn't see dead stripers around doesn't IMHO count for much, since the fish would not die immediately, it could take days, maybe ever weeks for the fish to dies from internal injuries. For example, if a fish's stomach gets twisted and it can't eat, how long will it take to starve to death.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

I don't think that there is much doubt that some species are more resilient than others. I also think that there isn't much doubt as to the effects of gravity. The fact that you didn't see dead stripers around doesn't IMHO count for much, since the fish would not die immediately, it could take days, maybe ever weeks for the fish to dies from internal injuries. For example, if a fish's stomach gets twisted and it can't eat, how long will it take to starve to death.

Thats a good point but I think that with the amount of fish we catch and I see being caught and released there would be large numbers of floaters and/or wash ups even after weeks or starvation. As you say it's a species thing. Trout I would tend to believe it would do harm as in codfish etc. Bass are are kind of naturally equipped for existing in a rough tough world what with scales as hard and a really good musculoskeletal structure. Well, I respect your opinion, I disagree on the bass aspect though.

[Mr. Sandman]

MM,

I have been biting my own lip not responding to this. I honestly don't mean anything personal and I think you are trying to send a positive sportsmanlike message that I fully support. I generally try to be as careful as possible when handling fish that I plan on releasing and think all fishermen should practice this. When thinking about this, I seem to weigh fish that I plan to take home, those that are released are generally not weighed but I have weighed and released some fish. It does bother me when I see someone kick a fish back into the surf harshly or abuse a fish in any manner. And over all I think the aricle was good in sending the message to be more careful when releasing fish.

But, when I read that sportsman that release fish are causing 100% mortality by simply weighing fish, I have to question where this is coming from.

I just don't buy that holding a fish for a short while in the vertical position harms it for a number of reasons. Those background reports you mention smell like more junk science to me. I put serious doubt in the AU study without reading it myself.

Some reasons for my disbelief:

1) The study was not done on SB. You assume that the effect is assumed across the species board. Anyone in science or engineering will tell you...assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups. In fact, SB are a rugged fish, this is no brook trout, this is a sturdy ocean-going fish I am SURE they will respond differently then what ever species they investigated. I have witnessed severe wounds (like seal bites) to these fish that continue to live on and feed, they have a strong will to live. I have my doubts that picking one up for a moment with a bogogrip will kill it as you surmise.

2) The AU study said 100% mortality if you hang them? How do I say this politely.....NO WAY. That alone (the 100% figure) tells me this study was seriously flawed. There is no way a respected technical study could show a 100% mortality unless they wanted to kill them all. Statistically (alone) this is almost impossible. Therefore I view the entire report as poor science and any responsible scientist should discard any and all conclusions they claim. I would look to see if the authors are connected with some other competing product to the bogogrip where they produced this "report" as sort of an infomercial so they might profit somehow... Typically this is the case.

3) You should have included a bibliography or index of these studies so the reader can flush out the question this study arises? Although I seriously doubt that any reader would chase it down that far. Was there a peer review this work by scientists in the US? I am not sure how they do things in AU but other leading scientists doing work in the same area generally review reports for credibility and repeatability before going public.

4) deleted.

5) In summary you state basically, Bogogrips with scales are bad for fish? Why does the IGFA then certify them for use in catch and release? I guess they are out of touch with this study. Have you discussed this with them? Are they aware of this study?

6) I noticed that a new potential Word Record Large Mouth Bass
was caught and it has been identified as the SAME FISH as was captured earlier by specific body markings. The fish weighed 21# and caught a couple years ago, WEIGHED and released, caught again and was something like 25# and was weighed and released again. There goes the 100% mortality theory. That fish should be dead.
How many times have you seen FW guys hoist up big bass by the lip flip them around in fits of joy and then and let them go? OK, they are not 50#ers but I think that there would be some mortality that would have been documented by now.
What about the millions of Tarpon and other offshore gamefishover 50# have been lip gaffed hoisted weighed and release. According to your theory, all of the should be dead. I think if this was actually happening, that it would have been identified by now as a real problem. In fact it has not. Oh, what about the fishery officals that shock fish, pull oiut the floaters, weigh and measure them and then put them back...they also seem to live on.

7) Have you ever seen the way comm. fishermen handle fish? Rough doesn’t even begin to describe it. And I am talking about the ones they don’t want and let go.

I think what bothers me the most is why does everyone blame the sportsman all the time who is trying to do the right thing and release a trophy fish while TONS of by-catch fish from draggers float on the surface and hundreds of illegal gill nets barely gets public attention. What am I missing?

Again, I know this seems like a harsh review but I believe this is article while well intentioned is promoting falsehoods about weighing fish.

I respect you as an experienced fishermen but have to disagree with the theory that weighing kills all fish.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Max,
The Aussies didn't study that. But my opinion is that, if the tagging is doen correctly and quickly, it should not increase the mortality of the fish. Having said that, I do think that things like the ALS tags do increase mortality, since most of the guys doing the tagging don't 1) do it quickly and 2) learn how to do it properly.

Thanks for the reply Mike