Rumors or where there's smoke there's something

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

You have no truth, Trump withheld the aid for his benefit.

The "President's interests” are not the goal of U.S. foreign policy.
Trump is not the sole author of U.S. policy.
The whole scandal is about the president arbitrarily withholding aid to Ukraine that had been approved by the U.S. Congress.

Yeah, I have a truth. I have many. In this regard, I have not fully expressed my truth. I have pushed back against much of what has been said that I disagree with. But I haven't spoken my whole truth.

My truth is that there is far more going on in our country, and in the world, than Trump's foibles. I have expressed that much. And I think that what has been attempted against Trump, from the beginning of his election and well before is more about the larger movement in our politics. Trump is just the current obstacle to that movement. And whatever it requires for that movement to take him down justifies for it any lack of truth. The stakes are too high for it to care about honor or truth.

As far as Trump is concerned, I think that he is bigly angered over what was done to him with the whole Russian collusion attempt to take him down. And very understandably angry. And he tends to fight fire with more and greater fire. Does that blind him to what is prudent? Perhaps so. But he fights back with whatever means are available to him, including those that have been used against him. Perhaps especially those that have been used against him.

The levers of government corrupted by political desires and aims have been used to try to take him out. He probably will use, as much as he thinks he can, the same to do back to those who did it to him. He has not gone as far, yet, as creating some huge hoax, some totally fictitious and destructive narrative. But he is fiercely using whatever political and legal levers available to vindicate himself and punish those who tried to destroy him. And while that self serving, if successful, benefits him politically, it would certainly benefit the country to expose what has been attempted and who did it. And it would, collaterally put a chink in that greater movement to which I referred.

This Ukraine stuff, carefully framed by his opposition to finally get him, and carefully framed by him and his supporters to appear perfectly fine, is too small an incident for me to care about. The Ukraine got its money. It made a statement that it doesn't have to comply with if it wishes not to, and may harm or help Biden win a nomination. Whatever I may think of Trump in a negative way, that can be amplified doubly towards Biden. I see Biden as the useful, corrupt, flotsam that helps to further erode our constitutional republic into the totally antithetical Progressive system of government which, if fully implemented, will very quickly evolve into full socialism and worse. And it is perfectly "legal" to ask Ukraine to investigate Biden corruption in Ukraine. Biden is not immune simply because he is a political opponent. And it is acceptable to withhold aid for the purpose of assuring that corruption will be addressed. That is essentially what Biden did. That is the kind of "quid pro quo" that is involved in all foreign aid--not necessarily about corruption, but some kind of benefit to the country that gives it.

The mountain out of a molehill concern over investigating the Bidens for corruption, which I believe surely exists and deserves investigation and exposure, definitely as much or more than the Russian collusion nonsense, is chicken chit compared to what wdmso would call the big picture. I don't doubt that Biden is every bit, if not more, corrupt than Trump, except that he has not had to be in the risky and economically perilous arena of the market place to display it. He's only been a gland-handing, self promoting and self aggrandizing politician helped by the Party machine to which he owes his success, and so been responsible for politically helping us down the road, as Hayek would say, to serfdom.

So no, I don't "believe" in Trump, as you continuously insist. But I believe he is far less the evil to our Republic than is the direction of the Democrat Party. And if "saving" Trump is necessary to combat that direction, that is worth it to me. And don't give me the nonsense that if Trump gets away with whatever little piece of dirt you think he is guilty of that it will destroy some rule of law or "our democracy." That kind of dirt has been around since the beginning. It's up to us voters to determine, unfortunately in this case, what is the bigger and more harmful dirt.

And yeah, I will engage in the careful parsing of words to match or combat the same well crafted ones that are thrown against Trump. Because my truth is, we have arrived at a seminal point in the evolution of this country's political framework that the direction will either be reversed toward the founding principles or develop into a fully authoritarian state (a supposedly "benevolent" one) and then quickly subsumed into a global one.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Yeah, I have a truth. I have many. In this regard, I have not fully expressed my truth. I have pushed back against much of what has been said that I disagree with. But I haven't spoken my whole truth.

And yeah, I will engage in the careful parsing of words to match or combat the same well crafted ones that are thrown against Trump. Because my truth is, we have arrived at a seminal point in the evolution of this country's political framework that the direction will either be reversed toward the founding principles or develop into a fully authoritarian state (a supposedly "benevolent" one) and then quickly subsumed into a global one.

If the Republican party are the cards you are playing, I am afraid that you will lose.

Your Trump is neither a libertarian, a conservative or a republican and could care less about anyone else. He consistently works for his own benefit. I also think he has too much power, presidential power has consistently grown for decades. The President is an administrator, not a King.

Perhaps with term limits the people could again gain control of Congress and control the administrative branch, but with a permanent political class (who Trump controls one side of) we have little hope.

I see a greater chance of the right moving to a fully authoritarian state (not a benevolent one) than the left.

case in point


The left may try and take your money and waste some but the right will take your soul and make it so others can slowly bleed all you have while you thank them for the opportunity.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

This Ukraine stuff, carefully framed by his opposition to finally get him, and carefully framed by him and his supporters to appear perfectly fine, is too small an incident for me to care about.

Interesting how you pick and choose your "constitutional" battles to fight. I think almost all the deposition transcripts are providing the evidence of quid pro quo, the money and aid was dependent on the Ukraine leader starting an investigation into the Bidens and for Trumps PERSONAL political gain. The it's all about corruption smoke screen is just that an attempt to hide the real reason for holding back the aid.

Its an abuse of power, it's asking for foreign help in our elections, it's what he admitted on camera he is ok doing; it's clear as a bell. Too funny you think the Democrats framed this all to take Trump down, the corruption is usually either in plain sight, or so poorly devised and played out, he can't help but get caught.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I think almost all the deposition transcripts are providing the evidence of quid pro quo,

that must be why they're not calling it a quid pro quo anymore

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

that must be why they're not calling it a quid pro quo anymore

Floridaman isn't, but the witnesses are

Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump
False stories are being reported that a few Republican Senators are saying that President Trump may have done a quid pro quo, but it doesn’t matter, there is nothing wrong with that, it is not an impeachable event. Perhaps so, but read the transcript, there is no quid pro quo!

The transcript still has not been released but there is plenty of evidence of quid pro quo, besides the Memo of Telecon

1. Ukraine Diplomat Bill Taylor's text messages
2. Bill Taylor's testimony
3. Gordon Sondland tells Sen. Johnson
4. Gordon Sondland lawyer's comments
5. Fiona Hill's testimony
6. Lt Col. Vindman's testimony
7. Tim Morrison's testimony
8. Mick Mulvaney's public comments

Trump's defense is failing as fast as his casinos or his foundations since the great and all-knowing Stable Genius must pay $2M judgment for improperly using his Trump Foundation charity to further his 2016 presidential campaign, judge rules Thursday.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Floridaman isn't, but the witnesses are

try to keep up democraps are changing their tune....they are all very nervous...hope that whistleblower testifies

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

try to keep up democraps are changing their tune....they are all very nervous...hope that whistleblower testifies

Look, we keep on using this euphemistic expression 'quid pro quo.' The actual term for what occurred is extortion, and extortion is a crime.

Just keep looking for needles

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Look, we keep on using this euphemistic expression 'quid pro quo.' The actual term for what occurred is extortion, and extortion is a crime.

Just keep looking for needles

There you go now you are up to speed.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

it's asking for foreign help in our elections,

wrong

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Interesting how you pick and choose your "constitutional" battles to fight. I think almost all the deposition transcripts are providing the evidence of quid pro quo, the money and aid was dependent on the Ukraine leader starting an investigation into the Bidens and for Trumps PERSONAL political gain. The it's all about corruption smoke screen is just that an attempt to hide the real reason for holding back the aid.

Its an abuse of power, it's asking for foreign help in our elections, it's what he admitted on camera he is ok doing; it's clear as a bell. Too funny you think the Democrats framed this all to take Trump down, the corruption is usually either in plain sight, or so poorly devised and played out, he can't help but get caught.

How do you know that investigating possible corruption by the Bidens would be a personal gain for Trump? Are you sure that corruption, illegality, by the Bidens would be found?