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Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi: |
11-28-2016, 08:34 AM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Somerset MA
Posts: 9,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch
There should not be a rivalry between public unions and the public at large. If the private sector wealth waxes and wanes, so should that of the public sector that serves it. When it reaches the stage of rivalry, something other than compensation squabbles is going on. In my opinion, that something is politics.
The battle (rivalry) is not between Public unions and the "right," it is between socialistic form of government and free market form. Your article demonstrates that. That is the proper argument we should be having.
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the story clearly outlines how the right has disrupted private unions and now are after public one because they vote Dem
there is no grand plan because between socialistic form of government and free market form. as you suggest
no the battle is between the haves and the have nots .. no one cared about public sector unions until private companys put the screws to the private sector ... yes there is little risk for a public worker when it comes to job security.. but the right thinks you can privatize all area of Government and thats their Goal.. there is no private police or fire compete with there never has ..
Many city and town legacy cost have become un funded mostly do to lack of Tax revenue for who else but big business in my town alone where taking a hit from 2 shut down coal electric plants who where taxed on output other places give generous tax breaks to companys who promise jobs then bail after the tax incentive expires..
But is much easier to attack the teacher or Cop or fireman then the real cause ... But lets make America Great again Counting on the company's to come back to the states, give the a big tax break and be thankful for more min wage jobs .. all this from the companys who screwed us in the 1st place 
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11-28-2016, 01:57 PM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso
the story clearly outlines how the right has disrupted private unions and now are after public one because they vote Dem
there is no grand plan because between socialistic form of government and free market form. as you suggest
no the battle is between the haves and the have nots .. no one cared about public sector unions until private companys put the screws to the private sector ... yes there is little risk for a public worker when it comes to job security.. but the right thinks you can privatize all area of Government and thats their Goal.. there is no private police or fire compete with there never has ..
Many city and town legacy cost have become un funded mostly do to lack of Tax revenue for who else but big business in my town alone where taking a hit from 2 shut down coal electric plants who where taxed on output other places give generous tax breaks to companys who promise jobs then bail after the tax incentive expires..
But is much easier to attack the teacher or Cop or fireman then the real cause ... But lets make America Great again Counting on the company's to come back to the states, give the a big tax break and be thankful for more min wage jobs .. all this from the companys who screwed us in the 1st place 
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"the right has disrupted private unions and now are after public one because they vote Dem"
I am critical of public labor unions NOT because they vote democrat, but because they are putting immense financial strain on public resources, and because they demand insane, INSANE benefits that were done away with, for good reason, in the private sector long ago.
"the battle is between the haves and the have nots "
I want my state to avoid bankruptcy. That means paying our public servants what we can reasonably afford to pay them. You can twist that into saying I only care about the rich, but my brother and sister-in-law are public schoolteachers here in CT, and they pull in over 100 large EACH, and they have immense pensions waiting for them. They are now "the haves". We can't afford it, we just can't.
"Many city and town legacy cost have become un funded mostly do to lack of Tax revenue"
CT is not suffering from a lack of tax revenue. It suffers from stupid spending. The #1 item on the list of stupid spending, is union benefits. Ct tax revenue is sky high. But we spend more. It doesn't matter what your revenue levels are, you need to spend less than hat you have. Right? If your state has less tax revenue, it needs to cut spending. Is that controversial? When a household has less income, it needs to cut spending. Same with a town or state.
"But is much easier to attack the teacher or Cop or fireman then the real cause ..."
Remind me again, what's the "real cause"? I can say to you, it's much easier to ignore the real issue, and attack republicans as hating teachers and cops. I love teachers and cops. But we can no longer afford to overpay them. We need to reign in those benefits before too many Baby Boomers are retired.
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11-29-2016, 05:53 AM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Somerset MA
Posts: 9,432
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You do realize that the so-called "middle class" is a by-product of capitalism? Unions did not create the middle class. They benefited from working for wealthy companies which paid them well--much more than they would have gotten otherwise--even before they were unionized.
Sadly you assume history would have been the same if unions were not involved..
if these wealthy compaines which you say paid them so we'll
why the need for unions Without unions, we would still be working 12 hour days, seven days a week, with no paid holidays, no paid vacations, no pay raises. Can unions price themselves out of a Job yes and many have accepted that reality
The #1 item on the list of stupid spending, is union benefits.
Thats not the whole story is it ... The new revenue erosion and higher pension costs together would swell the projected deficits to $1.5 billion next fiscal The chief culprits behind the latest declining forecast were the state income tax.. no money no spending bring back more min wage jobs and the 60 hr work week thats the answer
you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement or provide a valuable service to the state or town in which they work
INSANE benefits that were done away with, for good reason, in the private sector long ago.
what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped
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11-29-2016, 07:37 AM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso
Sadly you assume history would have been the same if unions were not involved.. could be better...who knows...we'd have fewer unfunded pension funds strangling municipalities...you are assuming it would be worse...the question is...for who?
if these wealthy compaines which you say paid them so we'll
why the need for unions there are lots of wealthy companies paying their employees well without the interference from unions..you act as though they don't exist
Without unions, we would still be working 12 hour days, seven days a week, with no paid holidays, no paid vacations, no pay raises. this is debatable and some of us refer to this a "self-employment"..been doing it most of my working life
Can unions price themselves out of a Job yes and many have accepted that reality
you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement or provide a valuable service to the state or town in which they work no one said any of this but the compensation and benefits are often way out of line with the private sector that was pointed out is paying the $ for that compensation..also..the retirement contributions don't appear to be sufficient to pay the benefit in most cases...
what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped
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I love you Wayne but you dismiss and then launch right into a predictable rant...Detbuch took the time to make some really valid points but you seem to completely ignore them
I don't have a problem with unions generally but broadly they engage in much of the bad behavior that they criticize businesses and the private sector for through political activity, patronage, mismanagement of funds and corruption... and act as an entitled mob when the don't get their way...this accounts more for their loss of membership and prominence more than any vast right wing conspiracy
Last edited by scottw; 11-29-2016 at 10:49 AM..
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11-29-2016, 09:17 AM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso
You do realize that the so-called "middle class" is a by-product of capitalism? Unions did not create the middle class. They benefited from working for wealthy companies which paid them well--much more than they would have gotten otherwise--even before they were unionized.
Sadly you assume history would have been the same if unions were not involved..
if these wealthy compaines which you say paid them so we'll
why the need for unions Without unions, we would still be working 12 hour days, seven days a week, with no paid holidays, no paid vacations, no pay raises. Can unions price themselves out of a Job yes and many have accepted that reality
The #1 item on the list of stupid spending, is union benefits.
Thats not the whole story is it ... The new revenue erosion and higher pension costs together would swell the projected deficits to $1.5 billion next fiscal The chief culprits behind the latest declining forecast were the state income tax.. no money no spending bring back more min wage jobs and the 60 hr work week thats the answer
you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement or provide a valuable service to the state or town in which they work
INSANE benefits that were done away with, for good reason, in the private sector long ago.
what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped
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"The new revenue erosion and higher pension costs together would swell the projected deficits to $1.5 billion next fiscal The chief culprits behind the latest declining forecast were the state income tax."
I don't know what that means.
But I know this...when CT tax revenues were at an all-time high, it still wasn't nearly enough to fund those benefits. WDMSO, you can't have public servants getting pensions worth several hundred thousand dollars. You just can't. The math worked in the 1950s, because people only lived a few years in retirement. Now, people live for decades. Again, that's why the private sector did away with these pensions.
Here's an idea...you save whatever you can for your retirement, just like I have to do. However much you choose to set aside, that's how much you have. That's the way it works for everyone else, there is no earthly reason why it can't work for public servants. Your financial security is no more important to society than anyone else's.
"you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement"
Who the hell said that?
Yes, most union workers pay a small % of their pay into their pension. But that's a tiny fraction of the overall cost of the pension, and you expect everyone else to make up the difference. Why is that? Why are unionized employees so special? if I don't save enough to fund my own retirement, are you going to chip into my 401(k)? No. I have to pay for my own retirement. So should you.
"what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped"
Pensions and cheap healthcare in retirement. Those were done away with in the early 1990s. They should be stopped (for the tenth time) because they are impossible to pay for. That's why states have those deficits. Those benefits can never, ever be paid for. Never..
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11-29-2016, 10:14 AM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
But I know this...when CT tax revenues were at an all-time high, it still wasn't nearly enough to fund those benefits.
That's why states have those deficits. Those benefits can never, ever be paid for. Never..
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current retirement benefits should not have to be paid with current tax revenues...where are the years of "contributions" plus interest made by the public employees to their retirement???....sounds like a Ponzi scheme
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11-29-2016, 11:16 AM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
current retirement benefits should not have to be paid with current tax revenues...where are the years of "contributions" plus interest made by the public employees to their retirement???....sounds like a Ponzi scheme
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Of course it's a Ponzi scheme.
These people make tiny contributions to their pensions, and in most states, the taxpayers are expected to make up the difference. states have mostly been able to kick the can down the road using accounting gimmicks (liabilities that aren't due in this year, aren't considered in the annual budget), but as more and more Baby Boomers are retiring, the reserves are dwindling FAST. Here in CT, we will start bouncing checks in 5-10 years (depending on interest rates and some other variables). At that point, the state will concede that they can't double th income tax, so they will have zero choice but to declare insolvency and re-negotiate those contracts.
These people should have switched to 401(k)s (or whatever you call the public sector equivalent) 25 years ago. But here in CT, the legislature has been controlled by Democrats for 30 years, and Democrats are beholden to labor unions, so that wasn't going to happen. You can only plug holes in the dike with your fingers for so long, we only have so many fingers. The Baby Boomers will be the wrecking ball that destroys the dike once and for all.
This isn't advanced calculus, this is elementary school arithmetic. You cannot have more than there is. Public labor unions are the lsst entity on the planet that refuses to accept that notion.
As you said, it is absolutely a Ponzi scheme. Like all Ponzi schemes, it will implode when sufficiently more money is going out than coming in. We have been treading water, barely, for many years. But we cannot dodge the economic impact of the Baby Boomers. It's coming.
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11-29-2016, 10:58 AM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
You can twist that into saying I only care about the rich, but my brother and sister-in-law are public schoolteachers here in CT, and they pull in over 100 large EACH, and they have immense pensions waiting for them. They are now "the haves". We can't afford it, we just can't.
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pretty sweet deal for 180 days a year
a part time worker putting in 3.5 days a week would be working 182 
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11-29-2016, 11:05 AM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
pretty sweet deal for 180 days a year
a part time worker putting in 3.5 days a week would be working 182 
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And their contribution to their pension, is 5% of each paycheck. For a 5% contribution, they will get an annual pension of more than 75k a year, starting at age 59 (compared to social security, where we contribute almost 13%, and at best will get 35k a year starting at age 67!!). That is INSANE. They could contribute 25% of their paycheck, it wouldn't fund that pension. And they expect the taxpayers to make up the difference.
I tell my brother and sister-in-law all the time to make other plans. They will not be getting that full pension, no way, no how - and they need to prepare for that. The state will declare insolvency long before they are dead, probably before they retire. Then we will re-negotiate those contracts.
And that's the irony. In the end, the people who get hurt the worst, are the union members who believed the unions and the politicians, who made ridiculous pension promises, in return for union dues and campaign contributions. It's beyond bad policy, it's evil. But when I warn people about what's coming (and it's coming, make no mistake), they say I hate teachers and cops.
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