The million crybaby march is underway...

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"bash away on liberal arts"

Do you follow the news? Students at Mizzou demand that the president renounce his "white male priviledge". These kids want college to be "free", and they want all existing student loan debt wiped out. Abu Mumia Jamal gets welcomed with open arms to speak at colleges, but Condaleeza Rice isn't welcomegets mobbed off the stage. Spence cannot answer when I ask him why Hilary's lies don't make her a liar. That's thinking logically? Sorry, I don't see it.

Is every liberal arts major wasting his time? Of course not.

Is it fair to demand that every engineering and accounting major extend college by 3 semesters, and go tens of thousands of dollars deeper into debt, and get forced to take this crap? Maybe not.

"They ability to think"

Right, kids in these classes are taught to think for themselves, as opposed to simply regurgitating whatever the professor says. In my experience, these liberal academics just love getting challenged on their beliefs. Like that media professor at Missouri who tried to have a student manhandled away from the protest. I'm sure she gives equally good grades to conservative students and liberal students, no question. Half the regular guests at MSNBC are college professors, I am sure they welcome opposing points of view with an open mind.

Make it optional. If a science major wants to take these things (and go deeper into debt as a result) let him. If he just wants to take classes pertinent to his major, let him do that. Isn't that "choice"? I thought liberals were in favor of "choice". I know I heard that somewhere.

"not just drones"

OK, so everyone who doesn't take these classes and fawn all over their professors, is "just a drone". How very tolerant.

You want to make college significantly cheaper? That's a way to do it. You can also learn history, philosophy, critical thinking, by reading on your own.

Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

"It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless"

I'm out of school, my loans are paid off, it's not my gripe. I am trying to think about the welfare of the next generation. No skin off my nose.

"I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page"

You'd be hard-pressed to find an occupation with more one-dimensional nerds than my field, actuarial science. I just don't think the answer is necessarily more liberal arts courses. Especially when we need to figure out ways to lower costs.

What's wrong with making it optional?

Bryan, look at the Yale kids, going berserk because a college professor was honest enough to tell them that they need to accept the fact that in life. sometimes they will get offended. And they couldn't deal with hearing that, so they are engaging in anarchy. I challenge the assumption that everyone is necessarily better off being exposed to whoever is teaching these kids to think this way.