Rudy Guiliani catching heat for saying Obama doesn't love the country

[spence]

I always thought of Rudy as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but this one took him into the gutter. His backpedaling that it couldn't be racist because Obama had a white mom was pretty amazing.

I'll give him credit for cleaning up the city and showing strong leadership after 9/11, but his behavior recently has been embarrassing. Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by justplugit

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

Exactly
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by justplugit

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

So you think our President doesn't love this country?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So you think our President doesn't love this country?

I think he tries very hard to transform this country into something he likes . I don't think he respects what it took to build this country
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by buckman

I think he tries very hard to transform this country into something he likes . I don't think he respects what it took to build this country
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So that means he doesn't love the country?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So that means he doesn't love the country!!!!!

Fixed it
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[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

.

Perhaps, but maybe he's a man who has experienced enough to see through all the BS and just cuts through the PC to tell it like it is.

Then why double down with an ugly ad hominem attack? If you're right then just make the superior argument.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Then why double down with an ugly ad hominem attack? If you're right then just make the superior argument.

We were both dealing with your favorite word " Perhaps". You personally attacked Guiliani by saying he was a resentful person. That would be an attack against his character. My perhaps didn't smear him, just supposed he was cutting through the PC and BS. Since when is that an attack on his character?

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by spence

this one took him into the gutter. His backpedaling that it couldn't be racist because Obama had a white mom was pretty amazing.

I'll give him credit for cleaning up the city and showing strong leadership after 9/11, but his behavior recently has been embarrassing. Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

Your double standards are impressive
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[detbuch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

Originally Posted by buckman

Your double standards are impressive
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You mean as in Obama was not saying a POS thing when he said that Bush was not patriotic, but Rudy was when he said what he did?

That would only be a double standard if Paul didn't think what Obama said about Bush was a POS thing. Maybe Paul does believe that what Obama said was a POS thing. So, maybe in Paul's mind they're both, sort of, a POS.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I agree - a real POS thing to say. I guess it is not far from saying the Pres. in a Muslim or born in Kenya.

I happily concede he was born here and isn't a Muslim. There's no evidence to suggest otherwise. There's plenty of evidence to suggest he doesn't love this country - namely, his willingness to associate with, and idolize, the likes of Rev Wright, Bill Ayers, and Michelle Obama.

In all seriousness, no sarcasm, how do you dismiss his intimate ties with those people? If I let Bull Connor baptize my kids, wouldn't you conslude I don't love blacks? How is that any different?

I'm also no huge fan of Rudy, but I love that someone on the national stage is willing to tell the truth at the risk of being called a racist.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I happily concede he was born here yet for the longest time the right would insinuate otherwiseand isn't a MuslimDidn't Scott Walker just say something like "I don't know if he is a Christian, I haven't talked to him about it".. There's no evidence to suggest otherwise. There's plenty of evidence to suggest he doesn't love this country - namely, his willingness to associate with, and idolize, the likes of Rev Wright, Bill Ayers, and Michelle Obama.

In all seriousness, no sarcasm, how do you dismiss his intimate ties with those people? If I let Bull Connor baptize my kids, wouldn't you conslude I don't love blacks? How is that any different?

I'm also no huge fan of Rudy, but I love that someone on the national stage is willing to tell the truth at the risk of being called a racist.

He has given his life to service to his country. Maybe tonight someone from the right will complain that he doesn't seem to want to work with the Repubs.

We have discussed numerous times what Michelle said and how it was taken out of context - how she was talking about how everyone seemed to be involved in the political process that year. Everyone who went to Rev. Wright's church said they would shake their head and mumble under their breath "there he goes again". Didn't Pres. Obama criticize Rev. Wright's speaches?

Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing.

So do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" bc I remember you getting upset bc you thought no one on the left thought Pres. Bush was a good person (and if I remember correctly it was the same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person).

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

[spence]

Originally Posted by PaulS

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

It was also a very politically stupid thing to say. Now, instead of GOP contenders working to sharpen their rhetoric they're being dragged into the "do you support Rudy" mud pit.

Perhaps the new Republican campaign slogan should be "hate before policy."

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

It was also a very politically stupid thing to say. Now, instead of GOP contenders working to sharpen their rhetoric they're being dragged into the "do you support Rudy" mud pit.

Perhaps the new Republican campaign slogan should be "hate before policy."

Right, because anytime a single Republican says something unpopular, you think all of them are accountable. Still haven't tried to refute the evidence Guliani offered to support his claim, I see. Easy to call him racist, a lot harder to make him wrong, based on what he actually said.

Marco Rubio nailed this perfectly. A reporter asked Rubio about Guliani's comment, and Rubio said "I'll tell you what I think of his comments, when you ask Democrat candidates why Bill Clinton is palling around with a known pedophile". The reporter didn't have much to say to that, naturally...

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

It was also a very politically stupid thing to say. Now, instead of GOP contenders working to sharpen their rhetoric they're being dragged into the "do you support Rudy" mud pit.

Perhaps the new Republican campaign slogan should be "hate before policy."

Perhaps we need to look at the "context " within what he was saying
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

He has given his life to service to his country. Maybe tonight someone from the right will complain that he doesn't seem to want to work with the Repubs.

We have discussed numerous times what Michelle said and how it was taken out of context - how she was talking about how everyone seemed to be involved in the political process that year. Everyone who went to Rev. Wright's church said they would shake their head and mumble under their breath "there he goes again". Didn't Pres. Obama criticize Rev. Wright's speaches?

Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing.

So do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" bc I remember you getting upset bc you thought no one on the left thought Pres. Bush was a good person (and if I remember correctly it was the same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person).

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

First of all, "the right" didn't say he wasn't born here, it was some on the right. Obama fueled some of that by, for a time, refusing to produce the long form.

Second, I havd grave doubts about calling him a "Christian". What I said was, there's no evidence he is a Muslim. But I would not call anyone who supported Rev Wright's hatefilled, racist "Black Liberation Theology" as a Christian, and he only left Rev Wright when his pollsters told him that Wright was a liability.

"He has given his life to service to his country"

He gave his life? Soldiers give their lives. Presidents are very loosely called "public servants", as they leave that office worth tens of millions of dollars. Many also like the power. I can't speculate on his motives, but I'd hardly call any modern president someone who donates their life in service to his country. He taught at Harvard for a while. He hasn't been a full-time politician for decades and decades. That's a real stretch, but you are entitled to make it.

"Maybe tonight someone from the right will complain that he doesn't seem to want to work with the Repubs." Right. When he said "Republicans gotta stop just hating all the time", that was his way of extending an olive branch across the aisle? Paul, I voted for Bill Clinton, and while he was a scumbag as a person, i never felt like he hated me. That's excatly how I feel about Obama. The bitter and clinging to their religion comment...I could go on and on and on. No modern President has been nearly this dismissive and insulting to the other side.

"what Michelle said and how it was taken out of context"

I don't remember discussing it. I also love how every time one of them puts their foot in their mouths, it's my fault for being too stupid to put it in the corrcet context. She said what she said. Everyone tells me how brilliant she is, so I assume she meant what she said.

"she was talking about how everyone seemed to be involved in the political process that year"

She was? Then why didn't she say that? You're trying to conect two dots that are miles apart, and that really smells of desperation. What she said, is that prior to his receiving the Democratic nomination, she was never proud of this country. That's not an ambiguous comment, it's not open to different interpretations. Spin that any way you want, put that in any context you want. It's a stupid thing to say. She went to an Ivy League school, I assume she could have said "I'm proud of how many people got involved" if that's what she meant. That's not remotely similar to what the woman said. You can do better than that weak attempt at spin.

"Didn't Pres. Obama criticize Rev. Wright's speaches?"

When? Before he ran for President? Obama called the man his spiritual mentor, he asked the man to baptize his children. If Obama had always dWright's anti-America message, I have never heard anyone make that claim until just now. Paul, how do you call someone your spiritual mentor, if you reject the very foundation of that man's spiritual beliefs? Have fun with that one...

"Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing. "

Correct, they are different things. For the record, no one said Obama hates the country, Rudy said he "doesn't love" the country. I agree. your attempts at dismissing my evidence were weak at best, IMHO. And I noticed you stayed away from the terrorist Bill Ayers completely.

I cannot know what's in his heart. But the man's most intimate confidants, and many things he says, paint a different picture that the picture painted by the actions of someone with a deep love for the country. You can lifelong disciple of Rev Wright and love the country, no more than I can go to Klan meetings every Sunday for 20 years and claim I love blacks.

You say that folks were dismissive of Wrightr's most fiery sermons? Wrong. He sold those on DVD, and made enough money to buy a multi-million dollar house on a golf course.

You show me that Obama rejected Wrights anti-American bile before it bacame a political necessity for him to do so, I will agree with you. But I have never, ever heard anyone make that claim until you did just now.

"do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" "

I'm a bit suprised you don't know the answer to that. I do not think he's a good person. I think he's a thin-skinned, vindictive, racist, elitist, snob with nothing but contempt for people who disagree with him. No good person would ever say that Republicans "just hate all the time", and I have zero doubt that's exactly what he believes. No good person claims that I cling to my religion because I am a bitter racist, and that's precisely what he said. He's too arrogant to admit that he's ever wrong, and he's almost always wrong. He routinely dismisses criticism of him as hate-filled racism.

"same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person)."

That's a riot. Obama said it was unpatriotic for Bush to run up the debt the wayhe did, but somehow it's a mark of Obama's genius that he added so much more debt...

Most rational people on th eleft, those who hate Bush's policies, agreed that he was an utterly decent man. But many liberal politicians, and many in the media, launced baseless perosnal attacks. I concede my attacks on Obama are personal, bu tthey aren't baseless. I can support my opinions. Just about every one of them. I laid out the evidence of why I think he doesn't love the country, and your rebuttal woulkd have gotten you a D in any high school debate class. You claim Michelle meant something completely different from what she said, you claim Obama rejected Wright's bile without any supporting evidence (maybe there is some, but I'm not aware of it), and you chose no tto say anything about his association with a man who tried to bomb the US Capital for Christ's sake. I'm holding 4 Aces and a king for a kicker here, and that beats your pair of threes.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by PaulS

He has given his life to service to his country.

So did Bush. Was it a POS thing for Obama to say he was unpatriotic?

Criticizing his policies is one thing but claiming he hates his country is a totally different thing.

Criticizing Bush's policy is one thing, but claiming he is unpatriotic is also a totally different thing.

So do you think Pres. Obama is a "good person" bc I remember you getting upset bc you thought no one on the left thought Pres. Bush was a good person (and if I remember correctly it was the same day where Pres. Obama said that Pres Bush was a good person).

And Giuliani said that Obama is a patriot.

As I said, a real POS thing to say.

Would you also say that Obama saying Bush was unpatriotic a POS thing? Maybe you would. Maybe you would think they are both a bit of a POS.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I always thought of Rudy as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but this one took him into the gutter. His backpedaling that it couldn't be racist because Obama had a white mom was pretty amazing.

I'll give him credit for cleaning up the city and showing strong leadership after 9/11, but his behavior recently has been embarrassing. Perhaps he's just resentful for that failed presidential run in 2008.

It's not the least bit racist. If we had a white president (1) whose spiritual mentor hated the country, (2) whose wife said she wasn't proud of this country until her hubby won, and (3) whose political mentor tried to bomb the US Capital building, I would say that white president doesn't love this country, and I would be correct. The fcat that there isn't a comparable white President about whom to draw the same conclusion, doesn't mean it's racist to judge Obama the same way. If Guiliani gave a white politician a pass under similar circumstances, you'd have evidence that he's picking on Obama because he's black. But he's picking on Obama for an irrefutable string of highly unusual close company he keeps.

Spence, for all the insults you hurled at Guliani, I noticed that you didn't type one syllable to refute what he said. Easy to insult him. Tell me why his conclusion is wrong, given the evidence I stated.

Again, if I spent 20 years in a church where the pastor was Rev Wright a white supremacist, would it be controversial for you to say "Jim doesn't love this country black people"? Nope, everyone would agree with you. Let's see you make that wrong?