IL unions get offered 14.5% raise, go on strike

[Jackbass]

Look I feel in the past 100 years unions are the best thing to happen for the American Middle Class( one could argue unions created the middle class) unions are also the worst thing to happen to the American Middle Class.

Unions elevated the American worker to a comfortable living wage. They went too far in the manufacturing industry bankrupting The auto industry and pushing most of the jobs overseas. Killing entire towns states etc.

However public unions are in place they are not going away. Municipalities have the ability to negotiate as they should. If they come to an impasse there will be a strike lockout what ever. One side will cave and there will be concessions. The public union may be holding back due to length of contract etc.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

Look I feel in the past 100 years unions are the best thing to happen for the American Middle Class( one could argue unions created the middle class) unions are also the worst thing to happen to the American Middle Class.

Unions elevated the American worker to a comfortable living wage. They went too far in the manufacturing industry bankrupting The auto industry and pushing most of the jobs overseas. Killing entire towns states etc.

However public unions are in place they are not going away. Municipalities have the ability to negotiate as they should. If they come to an impasse there will be a strike lockout what ever. One side will cave and there will be concessions. The public union may be holding back due to length of contract etc.
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I'll grant you that there was a time when unions did a tremendous amount of good. That was a long time ago. As you said, in the long run, they also priced themselves right out of existence, except in the public sector.

Today, public unions are doing a tremendous amount of economic damage in many places. You still haven't touched on that.

"public unions are in place they are not going away."

Tell that to the teachers in Wisconsin (of all places, Wisconsin!). Public opinion is turning rapidly against public unions. They may go away when people open their eyes and see just how much of their future earnings have been confiscated by the unions.

"If they come to an impasse there will be a strike lockout what ever"

Wrong. In many places (everywhere in CT), when they cannot agree, there is something called "binding arbitration", where a neutral third party comes in and makes the final decision. This could not be less democratic. The guy who has the ultimate say, the arbitrator, is not an elected official, therefore he isn't accountable to me, I cannot vote him out of office, yet he single-handedly decides what my property taxes will be.

And when there are strikes, the union has all the leverage, because those on strike may be responsible for public safety, or teaching our kids. It's completely imnmoral for those people to strike over cheap healkthcare and the right to fatten their already bloated pensions with overtime.

You also failed to mention the inevitable conflict of interest that occurs when public labor unions give huge campaign money to the same politicians who then decide what benefits to award the union.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

They went too far in the manufacturing industry bankrupting The auto industry and pushing most of the jobs overseas. Killing entire towns states etc.

Unions were only part of the equation.
Cheap crappy products.
Greedy executives.
Inability to accept the same garbage they'd been schleping on the public was 10-15-20 years behind their European and Asian competitors.

Face it, American cars are garbage. The only thing we seem to get right are full sized trucks.

[Jackbass]

Originally Posted by likwid

Unions were only part of the equation.
Cheap crappy products.
Greedy executives.
Inability to accept the same garbage they'd been schleping on the public was 10-15-20 years behind their European and Asian competitors.

Face it, American cars are garbage. The only thing we seem to get right are full sized trucks.

Valid point. But also at one point in time it cost less to have the vehicles produced by less expensive foreign labor while still paying for Americans to not work.

Not to mention the same Asian vehicles are being assembled in the US quite successfully in open shops.

US auto manufacturers had this country by the short hairs for ever if they just did their jobs. During the years that we fell behind. Design was an issue but fit and finish were major problems as well.
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[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

US auto manufacturers had this country by the short hairs for ever if they just did their jobs. During the years that we fell behind. Design was an issue but fit and finish were major problems as well.
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Design, performance, fit & finish have ALWAYS been issues.

It was a brief blip that American automobiles were 'desired', but how much of that had to do with availability? Sure muscle cars had their day but there wasn't really anything anyone else in the world was making like that at the time. Euros etc. were interested in going to work, not investing in an oil company to keep their cars going. But the muscle cars did what? Go really fast in a straight line aaaaand that was about it.

Right now there isn't a single american (or asian as far as im concerned) car that can touch the gf's Jetta TDi as far as a true combination of comfort, performance, AND economy in its size and class. Comfy car, sport mode with all that torque and you can slam down the country roads, and at 70 on cruise control you're tr#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g along at around 43-44mpg. About the only thing better that I know of offhand is an Audi A3 TDi, which is basically the same car with more leather slightly lighter and stiffer ride.

[Sea Dangles]

Yup
I am selling my suburban and looking for a yetta
the best car ever??? Hahahahaha

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Yup
I am selling my suburban and looking for a yetta
the best car ever??? Hahahahaha

Dig the sand out of your vag.

Originally Posted by My own post

Face it, American cars are garbage. The only thing we seem to get right are full sized trucks.

I would have taken you for a Ford man anyhow, you need as much bling as possible.

[TheSpecialist]

[QUOTE]

Here's how public unions work, and I am not wrong here. Unions give big money to politicians. Those same politicians then, once in office, get to decide what level of benefits to reward the unions (their benefactors) with. Politicians like to stay in office, so they give the unions whatever they ask for. Fast forward to today, when the demographic trsunami called "the Baby Boomers" causes the pyramid to collapse. Municipalties go bankrupt. Retirees get benefits slashed. Taxpayers see huge spikes in tax rates.
/QUOTE]

Ask the Boston Police, and Boston Fire Department how that works, Mayor Menino a Democrat backed by Unions gave them all the shaft , they are not allowed to strike , and have been working for years without raises or a contract. After they finally agreed to Arbitration, the City didn't like what the cops had won, and ware trying not to pay it.

Unions aren't the only ones to blame for the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. Business owners, and Wall Street demand more money in their pockets, therefore they move things over seas where the Average call center worker in India makes about $2 per hour. Do you know of anyone in America who could live on that? There is plenty of blame to go around for everyone.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

one could argue unions created the middle class

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huh??

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

huh??

I presume (could be wrong) that he means unions provided one potential path to a middle class existence, especially for those who didn't go to college. There was a time when a high school graduate could go to the auto plant, and if he worked enough hours, could carve out a middle-class lifestyle. And much of that was thanks to the unions.

In my opinion, saying that effect was a good thing, is awfully short-sighted. It worked out well for the generation that's just older than the Baby Boomers, who rode that wave and never had to suffer the consequences. It's not working out so well for everyone who came after them, nor is it working out so well for those just about to retire, who will never know for sure if/when the pension checks will stop coming because the company is bankrupt.

T

[Jackbass]

Originally Posted by scottw

huh??

In modern times post industrial revolution. Prior to unions the common man was not getting anywhere.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

In modern times post industrial revolution. Prior to unions the common man was not getting anywhere.
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But what about today? Are today's 'common men' better off thanks to unions? I'm not sure how you could say yes. Far fewer jobs, and if you are lucky enough to make it to retirement, you will never be able to rest easy that your pension is safe. The pension isn't safe, because even labor unions are governed by this one rule...you cannot have more than there is. It took them too long to accept that, and in the case of public unions going on strike rather trhan accepting a 15% raise and practically-free healthcare, they still haven't accepted it.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

In modern times post industrial revolution. Prior to unions the common man was not getting anywhere.
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The industrial revolution and capitalism tremendously improved the life of "the common man." It moved him out of the poverty of the aristocratic class system where he was stuck in mostly rural subsistence of poor health, short life, lack of mobility or improvement, into an overall improvement of all those conditions.

The market has always been the only method "the common man" could improve his lot. The market was the key element to bringing freedom and higher standards of living to "the common man." It is still the only viable method to maintain the best life for "the common man."--even in the so-called post industrial revolution.

The common man was "getting somewhere" during and after the industrial revolution due mainly through the market's ability to get him there. Unions may have helped him to get improved working conditions, which were improving anyway, and which were one of the greatest benefits of the industrial revolution and free market capitalism. As far as wages go, they were already higher in industries than elsewhere before unions were formed. The union demands only consistently escalated the cost of labor which had to be passed on to consumers and which were a part of the inflationary spiral that has existed since the New Deal.

Unions were not the reason for the "rise of the middle class." That rise was due to market capitalism and its empowerment of the consumer and individual entrepreneurs. Unions were the beneficiaries, not the propagators, of the rise of the middle class and the wealth created by the capitalistic market. The wealth first had to be created before there was any meaning for union existence. And there had to be an appreciable size to a business for the union to make demands. There are no unions for mom and pop stores. At the most basic levels where competition is most crucial for existence, unions would only be destructive. It is at the more secure levels, such as large corporations, and now, especially so, governments, that unions are "relevant." And it is in government where they are the most destructive.

If anything, in this post-post industrial revolution era the large conglomerate unions are an important part of a socio-political revolution. A revolution that is destroying "the middle class" and attempting to bring about an egalitarian society which discards capitalism, market forces, and even individual freedom. They were given their power by government intervention and mandate, and their main implementation is not for the benefit of the worker within his corporation, but the broader political power to destroy market forces in favor of a non-competitive, homogenous, and centralized, and yeah, Marxist, economy. They are making the idea of the "common man" one of meaning a humanity which is completely common.