Anyone following what's going on in Wisconsin?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Only one word for the democrats of Wisconsin,

"COWARDS!"

You left out selfish.

They can balance their budget without raising taxes, if the unions would be willing to pay half as much for their benefits as everyone else.

And they respond by throwing a tantrum.

I agree that the proposed bill is unfair, because I don't see why unionized workers shouldn't pay THE SAME as everyone else. Why should the taxpayers bear that burden? Anyone?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I agree that the proposed bill is unfair, because I don't see why unionized workers shouldn't pay THE SAME as everyone else. Why should the taxpayers bear that burden? Anyone?

Should they pay more? sure.
Should they lose their right to collective bargining? No. that is the crux of this right now. Funny how the police and fire unions were conviniently left out this time around....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Should they pay more? sure.
Should they lose their right to collective bargining? No. that is the crux of this right now. Funny how the police and fire unions were conviniently left out this time around....

"Should they lose their right to collective bargining? No."

There is no consensus in this country that we have a fundamental right to collective bargaining.

"that is the crux of this right now."

The hell it is. The unions are screaming that the proposed cuts (excluding the loss of CB) are too stiff.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Fine, let use the cost angle alone.

You love to use the analogy of the increasing taxes to pay for the unions and public workers you clearly demise. Joe taxpayer has a budget, then his taxes double and he can't afford his house anymore, sound familiar?

Lets flip the coin. These people have budgets and expenses etc.. and the govenor et al., want that to change significantly, drasticly increasing their costs to what you pay in the private sector. (FWIW, We have family benefits from a private insurer. We don't pay anywhere near 30-40% of health care costs. When my son was born the largest bill was for the cable in the hospital room.)

How do you expect the teachers to react? Oh no problem, we'll jump onboard. No, they will try and fight for what they percieve to be right. I forgot, your wife, when she goes back to taching will take the pension in the meantime because it is whats best for your family, while lobbying for it to change to a 401K.

I'm not saying either side is right, but it doesn't make either side wrong. Joe blow losing his house because taxes went up, ot Joe teacher losing their house because their health care costs went up.

then again, all those teachers are rich grady-white owning scam artists anyways

have a good weekend.

And JohhnyD, I like your posts, but if you really believe most teachers work shorter days, comeone... less days, yes, shorter, not really, and I'm a property owning, kid having left center liberal, where does that put me?

[scottw]

no idea where to even start with that one but I think they're being asked to pay 12% of their hc premiums and contribute to their pensions....draconian

I think Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton just showed up...it's not a real protest till they arrive.....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

no idea where to even start with that one but I think they're being asked to pay 12% of their hc premiums and contribute to their pensions....draconian

.....

Yeah, I thought Lincoln freed the salves????

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Fine, let use the cost angle alone.

You love to use the analogy of the increasing taxes to pay for the unions and public workers you clearly demise. Joe taxpayer has a budget, then his taxes double and he can't afford his house anymore, sound familiar?

Lets flip the coin. These people have budgets and expenses etc.. and the govenor et al., want that to change significantly, drasticly increasing their costs to what you pay in the private sector. (FWIW, We have family benefits from a private insurer. We don't pay anywhere near 30-40% of health care costs. When my son was born the largest bill was for the cable in the hospital room.)

How do you expect the teachers to react? Oh no problem, we'll jump onboard. No, they will try and fight for what they percieve to be right. I forgot, your wife, when she goes back to taching will take the pension in the meantime because it is whats best for your family, while lobbying for it to change to a 401K.

I'm not saying either side is right, but it doesn't make either side wrong. Joe blow losing his house because taxes went up, ot Joe teacher losing their house because their health care costs went up.

then again, all those teachers are rich grady-white owning scam artists anyways

have a good weekend.

And JohhnyD, I like your posts, but if you really believe most teachers work shorter days, comeone... less days, yes, shorter, not really, and I'm a property owning, kid having left center liberal, where does that put me?

"You love to use the analogy of the increasing taxes to pay for the unions and public workers"

It's not an analogy, that's literally what happens. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for these benefits?

"We don't pay anywhere near 30-40% of health care costs. When my son was born the largest bill was for the cable in the hospital room.)"

You need to get the facts. No one is saying that folks in the private sector pay a 30% co-pay. But we do pay 30% of the cost of our healthcare insurance policy through work. That's what we're talking about. We pay 30% of the premiums, teachers in WI pay 6%. That's fair!!

"How do you expect the teachers to react?"

(1) I expect them to show up for work the next day, or make room for those who will
(2) I expect them to thank their lucky starts that the proposal still only asks them to pay half what everyone else pays
(3) I expect them to thank their lucky stars that they still have pensions, which no one else has
(4) I expect them to say, "gee, you all went through this same thing 15 years ago? Now I almost know how you feel, but not quite, since I still have tenure, a pension, I'm still exempt from social security...

"I forgot, your wife, when she goes back to taching will take the pension in the meantime because it is whats best for your family, while lobbying for it to change to a 401K. "

You're damn right we'll lobby for 401(k)'s. That's clearly what's right, and in Wisconsin, these cuts are what the public voted for. That's what we call "democracy", you see. Although, she probably won't go back.

The Republicans did not like Sonia Sotomayor, so they asked her tough questions during her hearings. They didn't sabotage the democratic process. Yet they were still called "obstructionists" by lefty morons.

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Fine, let use the cost angle alone.

You love to use the analogy of the increasing taxes to pay for the unions and public workers you clearly demise. Joe taxpayer has a budget, then his taxes double and he can't afford his house anymore, sound familiar?

Lets flip the coin. These people have budgets and expenses etc.. and the govenor et al., want that to change significantly, drasticly increasing their costs to what you pay in the private sector. (FWIW, We have family benefits from a private insurer. We don't pay anywhere near 30-40% of health care costs. When my son was born the largest bill was for the cable in the hospital room.)

How do you expect the teachers to react? Oh no problem, we'll jump onboard. No, they will try and fight for what they percieve to be right. I forgot, your wife, when she goes back to taching will take the pension in the meantime because it is whats best for your family, while lobbying for it to change to a 401K.

I'm not saying either side is right, but it doesn't make either side wrong. Joe blow losing his house because taxes went up, ot Joe teacher losing their house because their health care costs went up.

then again, all those teachers are rich grady-white owning scam artists anyways

have a good weekend.

And JohhnyD, I like your posts, but if you really believe most teachers work shorter days, comeone... less days, yes, shorter, not really, and I'm a property owning, kid having left center liberal, where does that put me?

I do not know where you live, but, a teacher is not losing their home where I live and properties are not cheap here. The teachers here go to a 2nd job for the summer, at least those that want to work.

I exspect them to act sencesibily. When most Americans in the private sector pays 60/40 for health insurence, they should have no qualms paying 12-14 percent.

I do not pay 30-40 percent either, the company that I work for pays the whole premium, I do pay the first 1,000.00 of a hospital bill visit and the insurence pays everything else the rest of the year. My first visit this year cost 6,000, I paid the 1,000, my second visit the other day was 3,000.

In Wisconsin the average pay is 68,000 and with benifits is 86,000 not bad for 180 days. When I went to school 180 days is a half year, maybe you use modern math today.

I have expenses also and I do not sleep on the job for 24 hours like a fireman and then go to my day job for the next three days before retuning to my fire job get hurt on the day job and claim it on my city job.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

I do not pay 30-40 percent either, the company that I work for pays the whole premium, I do pay the first 1,000.00 of a hospital bill visit and the insurence pays everything else the rest of the year. My first visit this year cost 6,000, I paid the 1,000, my second visit the other day was 3,000.

In Wisconsin the average pay is 68,000 and with benifits is 86,000 not bad for 180 days. When I went to school 180 days is a half year, maybe you use modern math today.

I have expenses also and I do not sleep on the job for 24 hours like a fireman and then go to my day job for the next three days before retuning to my fire job get hurt on the day job and claim it on my city job.

your company factors the cost of insuring you into your total compensation...you might recieve a larger salary if you were not being insured, these teachers etc. don't look at it that way in my opinion, it is an entitlement to them, they rarely talk about total compensation...only the salary...they just expect full health benefits with little or no out-of-pocket on their behalf and expect a pension payment till they depart

the figures that I read were average teacher salary $56,594.61 ...on benefits there was a discrepancy between what the state reported and the schools but it was either around 32k(According to William Johnston, the district’s executive director of business, teachers during the 2008-09 school year received an average of $31,507.97 in benefits, an $11,000-plus discrepancy compared with state data....
or 42k(According to Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction data, the average fringe benefit for Unified teachers was worth $42,666 )...
so total average teacher compensation is/was about 90-100k

please browse these numbers...imagine if every city and town published these???? total cash compensation is mind bogglingEmployees Salaries Lookup

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by scottw

your company factors the cost of insuring you into your total compensation...you might recieve a larger salary if you were not being insured, these teachers etc. don't look at it that way in my opinion, it is an entitlement to them, they rarely talk about total compensation...only the salary...they just expect full health benefits with little or no out-of-pocket on their behalf and expect a pension payment till they depart

the figures that I read were average teacher salary $56,594.61 ...on benefits there was a discrepancy between what the state reported and the schools but it was either around 32k(According to William Johnston, the district’s executive director of business, teachers during the 2008-09 school year received an average of $31,507.97 in benefits, an $11,000-plus discrepancy compared with state data....
or 42k(According to Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction data, the average fringe benefit for Unified teachers was worth $42,666 )...
so total average teacher compensation is/was about 90-100k

please browse these numbers...imagine if every city and town published these???? total cash compensation is mind bogglingEmployees Salaries Lookup

Buying just think if they got rid of buying back accrued sick time on retirement how much that would save?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

The hell it is. The unions are screaming that the proposed cuts (excluding the loss of CB) are too stiff.

Well, the union met the governor on much of the costs...

still seems like this is the sticky wheel is collective bargaining.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Well, the union met the governor on much of the costs...

still seems like this is the sticky wheel is collective bargaining.

You are 100% correct, latest reports say that the unions proposed to agree to all of the financial concessions, if the state would leave collective bargaining in place, and the gov gave them an emphatic "no".

As I said earlier, I htink the unions overplayed their hand terribly, and put the governor in a position where if he backs off anything, he looks weak. 3 months into his term, he won't want to appear weak.

I hope he destroys this union, and that other states follow suit. You should either give your customers (in this case, taxpayers) a non-union alternative, or get rid of the union. Why can't these folks negotiate their pay with their employer just like veeryone else does? I don't get it.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

As I said earlier, I htink the unions overplayed their hand terribly, and put the governor in a position where if he backs off anything, he looks weak. 3 months into his term, he won't want to appear weak.

OR

The gov overplayed his hand and it backfires on him.

they agreed to 100% of the costs. 100% as long as they can keep the right to collective bargining.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

OR

The gov overplayed his hand and it backfires on him.

they agreed to 100% of the costs. 100% as long as they can keep the right to collective bargining.

RIROCKHOUND, you may be right. However, in my opinion, when people stop looking at the "don't hate me because I'm a teacher" signs, and they realize that all the gov is asking for is for teachers to pay LESS THAN HALF of what the taxpayers have to pay, more people will side with the gov.

Again, why is it unfair to ask teachers to pay 13% of the cost of health insurance, if everyone else pays 30%.

As Obama likes to say (or more correctly, he used to like to say), "elections have consequences". The people in WI voted for Republicans.

One last thing? anyone siding with the Dems who fled the state, has forever forfeited the right to call Republicans "obstructionists".

This is a fascinating event, which I think will have repurcussions way beyond WI.

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You left out selfish.

No!, I did not leave out selfish.

I was talking about the dems, they are Cowards.

Yes!, the workers are selfish.

[stcroixman]

Dylan - the times they are a changin'- what is interesting is that changes must aand will be made.

Preliminary observation on my part - Democrats not facing reality and Republicans coming on too heavy could ruin a great game plan.

Republicans could score big if they soften their edge by 25%

Democrats have too big an adjustment to make on this IMO.

[scottw]

absolutely, the good thing is that we are having this conversation and all is on display, I hope that they show up at every capitol and state their grievances and one by one we can bring the contracts in line with the reality of the rest of the country and decrease the power held by the unions over the various levels of government, it won't be easy, might get ugly but these things need to be addresssed, people are going to be upset but there is just no way to continue to fund these benefits and entitlements as constituted....and the Justice Brothers will have something to keep them busy