Human caravan

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by DZ

I don't believe they are true refugees - they are not fleeing a war torn country. Trump administrations problem is they can't "legally" mobilize active duty troops into law enforcement action (Posse Comitatus) UNLESS they can cite a danger to national security which is where this report I keep seeing referenced of 100 terrorists comes into play. That may allow his administration to place troops at the border in states (California) that will not mobilize their National Guard units.

National security is forgive the pun Trumps Trump card he has used and abused it


Trump doesn't want to follow the law if he can get them to not make it to the border by physically blocking asylum seekers from setting foot on US soil — in other words, from triggering a legal right to claim asylum in the US — to begin with.

[Nebe]

im surprised no one here has stated that George Soros is funding them

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Nebe

im surprised no one here has stated that George Soros is funding them

Those conspiracy theories the Right thinks up really do make me laugh. Jade helm 😂
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

im surprised no one here has stated that George Soros is funding them

i asked who is funding them, because it looks like someone is. from what i can see, none of them are carrying the gear you’d need to walk across mexico without outside help. where is the food? who’s carrying all that food? unless there’s a train following them, i don’t get the logistics.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

im surprised no one here has stated that George Soros is funding them

that's a given

[scottw]

can't wait till the next caravan of 70,000

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

can't wait till the next caravan of 70,000

I don’t think even Trump has balls enough for that big a lie, but he has already grown it considerably
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

can't wait till the next caravan of 70,000

there's another one forming in Honduras right now.

[Pete F.]

Open borders and refugees are different issues legally, though Trump is conflating them, quite successfully with his base as is demonstrated in this thread
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[Jim in CT]

why are these people waving the flag of the country they are fleeing, exactly?
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

why are these people waving the flag of the country they are fleeing, exactly?
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I guess people need to ditch their Irish italian portuguese flags and tattoos seeing they were fleeing those countries to get here.. and that was a long time ago .. with that kind of thinking its clear why your a conservative ...

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by wdmso

I guess people need to ditch their Irish italian portuguese flags and tattoos seeing they were fleeing those countries to get here.. and that was a long time ago .. with that kind of thinking its clear why your a conservative ...

Were they waving them on the ship as they were heading into Ellis Island.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

I guess people need to ditch their Irish italian portuguese flags and tattoos seeing they were fleeing those countries to get here.. and that was a long time ago .. with that kind of thinking its clear why your a conservative ...

My ancestors didn't flee Ireland for quite the same reasons these people are fleeing Honduras. And I think you know that.

Seriously, what would it take for a non-partisan answer from you, to one singe question?

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

My ancestors didn't flee Ireland for quite the same reasons these people are fleeing Honduras. And I think you know that.

Seriously, what would it take for a non-partisan answer from you, to one singe question?

Its a human answer so why are these people fleeing Honduras Seeing you seem to know the real reason?

And how is fleeing because of Famine a more noble reason ??


Try reading history Even before the famine, these people had been desparately poor, proverbially the poorest in Europe.

now its south america

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Open borders and refugees are different issues legally, though Trump is conflating them, quite successfully with his base as is demonstrated in this thread
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Actually, open borders are conflated with immigration by Social Marxists, Postmoderns, ultra-Progressives, and even some Libertarians. The first three of those view the free flow of migrations in which borders of all types from physical, psychological, or any social construct would disappear, and all constructed nation states would dissolve into a world-wide open society where all individuals would create their own identity

The Postmoderns would be free of any structured society.

The Marxists and Progressives would somehow maintain a centralized world State.

The Libertarians would not abandon social constructs but would embrace borderless societies and abandon statism.

[Sea Dangles]

I am not sure what the answer is but the question has been asked Wayne so why not answer. There are a lot of unfortunate people on the planet, should the United States have an open border and help all whom ask?
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[detbuch]

[Pete F.]

How the caravan started
TAPACHULA, Mexico—When Bartolo Fuentes speaks about migrants, the usually soft-spoken former politician gets passionate, and an encyclopedic knowledge of immigration issues shines through. Bespectacled and 54 years old with salt and pepper hair, he has the look of a professor, but he draws on a lifetime working with migrants in Honduras, and on his own personal experience.

In 1980 an older brother migrated north, and by the end of the decade Bartolo sought refuge in Mexico himself after receiving threats. Central America’s right-wing death squads were notorious and his earlier participation in protests against the U.S.-backed Contras, who used his country as a staging ground in their CIA-backed war on Nicaragua’s Sandinistas, made him a potential target.

Until recently, Fuentes lived in relative anonymity despite being a former legislator and the host of a radio show on migration called “Without Borders.” But today, depending on who you ask, he is either a hero who’s put his own life on the line to help migrants, or a cynical villain. Many in the Honduran government—concerned with the country’s image amid a mass exodus—portray Fuentes as a “coyote,” or human trafficker, who organized the migrant caravan and took advantage of the people in it with “false promises” for political purposes.

ABOUT A MONTH AGO, when Fuentes first became aware of small groups dispersed throughout Honduras that were organizing among themselves to make the trek north, he decided to help out, just as he had done with a previous migrant caravan last April—and indeed throughout his life.

At the time, all the groups combined numbered no more than 200 people, Fuentes says. As someone who had helped repatriate the bodies of many migrants who died in the journey al Norte, he was acutely aware of the dangers and wanted to help ensure the people’s safety.

“No one expected this human avalanche,” he told The Daily Beast in a phone call from the Honduran capital, Tegucigalpa.

But then a report on the country’s most-watched cable news channel, HCH, painted a picture of the caravan that changed everything. The anchors interviewed a woman who was supposedly part of the caravan. The woman talked about safety in numbers, called Fuentes the organizer and mentioned foreign assistance. The anchors, without any supporting evidence, then said that Fuentes would pay for the migrants’ food and transportation.

Fuentes was later interviewed by the anchors and strongly refuted what was said, but by then the damage was done.
“After that news program I started to get hundreds of calls, then it took on a life of its own,” said Fuentes. “In Honduras, the government wants to minimize why people are leaving—they know they are going to leave and they want to say they are doing so because of lies and the opposition, not the conditions that they created. This is in line with what the United States is saying—that there are false promises being made. And this pro-government news program played into that messaging, trying to say that there is financing when really people just need to get out.”

Soon afterward, Hondurans from across the country headed west to join the caravan, which swelled by the thousands. Many were propelled to join by the HCH report, but the majority were people who had been considering migration for a long time and now saw an opportunity to head north with added safety in numbers and without having to pay a coyote, which can cost as much as $7,000.
Trump floated the idea the caravan was rife with criminals and “Middle Easterners,” only to have Guatemala’s president claim, in a burst of pure sycophancy meant to back up Trump’s claims, that several members of the so-called Islamic State had been intercepted. No evidence was presented to substantiate that statement. New York Times fact checkers rubbished it in short order. And, as it happens, for more than a century “Middle Easterners” have been a significant part of the Honduran population. They’re called Turcos because they immigrated so long ago they came with Ottoman passports.

In Honduras two-thirds of the population lives in poverty and the total number increased by roughly six percent in 2017; 80 percent of workers earn below the minimum wage of a few hundred dollars per month. On top of this, Honduras ranks among the most violent countries on the planet. Fewer than one in 10 crimes is ever solved.

And then there’s the drought. Honduras is one of the countries that has been most affected by climate change, particularly in the part of its territory that intersects with what’s known as the Central America Dry Corridor. In the past, farmers in this region could rely on two harvests annually, but now they are lucky to produce one. This year, a severe drought during the rainy season meant tens of thousands of families produced none.

[scottw]

do you want to let them all in Pete?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

do you want to let them all in Pete?

What does how the caravan started have to do with if anyone wants open borders or a new immigration policy? I have never said that everyone can come.
Which of the central american countries do you want to use North Korean control of their people so that they don't leave, no Trumplican, except perhaps their leader who is having an admitted love affair with Kim Jong-un, has an issue with North Koreans escaping horrible conditions, though Trump brought a NK refugee to his State of the Union speech.
Do you think it will ever change if the only negotiating tool that the current administrations uses is "if you don't agree with what I propose, then you want open borders"

Perhaps you would advocate genocide to get rid of the awful brown people, or just pick anyone up who looks like that and deport them.
We rounded up all the people of mexican descent, citizens or not in the the Mexican Repatriation in the 1930s, it is remarkably similar to the current atmosphere and political behavior, though we don't have an economic depression currently to blame it on.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

What does how the caravan started have to do with if anyone wants open borders or a new immigration policy? I have never said that everyone can come.
Which of the central american countries do you want to use North Korean control of their people so that they don't leave, no Trumplican, except perhaps their leader who is having an admitted love affair with Kim Jong-un, has an issue with North Koreans escaping horrible conditions, though Trump brought a NK refugee to his State of the Union speech.
Do you think it will ever change if the only negotiating tool that the current administrations uses is "if you don't agree with what I propose, then you want open borders"

Perhaps you would advocate genocide to get rid of the awful brown people, or just pick anyone up who looks like that and deport them.
We rounded up all the people of mexican descent, citizens or not in the the Mexican Repatriation in the 1930s, it is remarkably similar to the current atmosphere and political behavior, though we don't have an economic depression currently to blame it on.

I often read your posts and wish I hadn't bothered....

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

I often read your posts and wish I hadn't bothered....

I'd say the same about yours, but they have the saving grace of being short.

[Nebe]

I find it hilarious that the Christian faith is all about love and kindness and accepting those less fortunate than you. Mary and Joseph were refuges.
Seems like the Christian faith in the US has lost its way.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I find it hilarious that the Christian faith is all about love and kindness and accepting those less fortunate than you. Mary and Joseph were refuges.
Seems like the Christian faith in the US has lost its way.
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thought that was banned from politics?...you know...separation of church and state and all of that

Mary and Joseph were not refugees stoopid.....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I find it hilarious that the Christian faith is all about love and kindness and accepting those less fortunate than you. Mary and Joseph were refuges.
Seems like the Christian faith in the US has lost its way.
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Nebe, I'm a Christian, I feel for these people. But we can't take in everyone who wants to come. We don't have the space or the money, and there is no tenet of Christianity which commands me to abandon common sense or reality in the name of good works.

I completely agree that Christianity has lost its way. This migration isn't evidence of that...but liberalism sure is.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I completely agree that Christianity has lost its way. This migration isn't evidence of that...but liberalism sure is.

And yet the conservative phil. Is to cut the taxes of the rich and then blame the soaring deficits on entitlement spending so they can cut benefits from the poor and less fortunate. They have no empathy or pity. At least we don't have to hear the words "compassionate conservative" any more.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

And yet the conservative phil. Is to cut the taxes of the rich and then blame the soaring deficits on entitlement spending so they can cut benefits from the poor and less fortunate. They have no empathy or pity. At least we don't have to hear the words "compassionate conservative" any more.
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do you ever get one right, even by accident? the conservative philosophy is to avoid wasteful spending to keep taxes for everyone, no higher than they need to be. try poking holes in that. if conservatives have no empathy or pity, why does the new york times admit that conservatives give more
money and time to charity, than liberals do?
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

do you ever get one right, even by accident? the conservative philosophy is to avoid wasteful spending to keep taxes for everyone, no higher than they need to be. try poking holes in that. if conservatives have no empathy or pity, why does the new york times admit that conservatives give more
money and time to charity, than liberals do?
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Just because Arthur Brooks writes a book that says so doesn’t make it true
A 2013 MIT study found charitable giving equal between liberals and conservatives
We’ll see how the latest Republican tax reform affects charitable giving since many people will have a harder time taking deductions
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

do you ever get one right, even by accident? the conservative philosophy is to avoid wasteful spending to keep taxes for everyone, no higher than they need to be. try poking holes in that. if conservatives have no empathy or pity, why does the new york times admit that conservatives give more
money and time to charity, than liberals do?
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We've discussed this 20 times - the conserv. give $ to their church (like I do w/about 50% of my yearly donations). Take that out and factor in the amount of poor who vote D, then it is prob different.

Any your's and my donations can't make up for what the govern. does.

Fact is that the conserv. policies always try to cut back on spending to the poor. Shows their lack of empathy.

Both Tillerson and G. Cohen said that Trump has no empathy (and pity) and Trump pretty much owns the R party now.

And you always complain that the Ds. ripped Romney apart. They did - bc he said he didn't have to worry about 47% of the country (shows his lack of empathy although I don't want to put him in the category as Trump). If Obama said he didn't care about almost 50% of the country you would have posted that 500 times.

[Pete F.]

If the big danger we face is Central Americans why doesn't Trump have a Summit with the leaders of the Central American countries?
I would expect he could also solve that in a day by just taking a meeting.