Something constructive

[numbskull]

After making an unpleasant mess of the video thread I figured better get back to plugs. Finally finished these. A mutual aquaintance (not Lu) tells me that in the spring, when visiting the Vineyard, Donny Musso likes to fish a small @ 4" swimmer he builds but never marketed. Based on his other swimmers I guessed it would be something like this. 5" 1.75 oz. I put a small tail weight in it since I don't like swimmers with tail hooks. Second shot is the plug with normal sized copies of the medium and large Musso swimmers.

[BigFish]

Those are beauties George! Beautiful work guaranteed to trigger a strike!

[striperman36]

I think a live eel would work almost as good

[Tagger]

1.75 ounces ,,, guess you'll be breaking out the ZB to fish those .. look pissa ...

[eskimo]

wow. not much to say besides great, as always.

[Raven]

shack Nasty plugs.... well made too

cheer up George

[scottw]

those are beautiful.......meticulous!

[Slipknot]

lookin good George
I have an eelskin that would fit that large one

[eastendlu]

Man those look sweet George I will be talking to you soon about a question you asked me over a year ago i have an answer

[NIB]

Very nice work as usual Geo.You are a great inspiration.I hope you keep it up..
I have a Question for ya.
Why did you decide to go with 2 belly hooks on the small swimmer instead of one.One hook allows you to go 3/0.With 2 your limited to maybe a 1/0 or Maybe 2/0 front 1/0 back.

[go4broke44]

Nice job! I should send you one of the peanut conrads I made using the same thought process (pichney copy though) they are about 4-4.5" and 1.75oz as well.

[BIG TIM]

My oh my!!!

[ProfessorM]

nice G. I will be trying to ho one of those as I like small stuff. Epoxy looks good too. I am still struggling with the CC this year, so far.

[Flaptail]

Very nice G-Man, can't wait to try the one Santa dropped at my door!

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by NIB

Very nice work as usual Geo.You are a great inspiration.I hope you keep it up..
I have a Question for ya.
Why did you decide to go with 2 belly hooks on the small swimmer instead of one.One hook allows you to go 3/0.With 2 your limited to maybe a 1/0 or Maybe 2/0 front 1/0 back.

These will carry 1/0's. Not expecting anything massive on them....more of a "something to toss while walking the dog" kind of a plug .

I got a theory that danny/donny style surface swimmers balance better with two hooks and a central pivot point (ie weight). I also think the two belly hooks do a better job of hooking both fish that nudge the plug half heartedly and the ones that hit hard from the nose (I'm pretty sure the lip of the plug often deflects the fish off the front hook). I'm still undecided if I like compensating for the lack of a tail hook by using a small tail weight or not.....it tends to make the tail swing more once the plug gets moving but also require slightly more speed to keep it working. Plugs that use a surfster lip are different. BF's Prey, for example, has a great action with the one belly hook.

Subsurface I'm OK with one belly hook. One hook and a weight behind seems to give the plug more of a wag from the head as opposed to a pivot around the belly (which is also why surfsters do well in that setup). Interestingly, Sauerkraut (on those rare occasions when he can't fish his beloved snakes) will use needles with only a single belly hook and no tail hook (which goes to show how important balance actually is) and catches enough large fish that way to embarrass me and all my hard formed "theories".

[steelhead]

Virtually the same dimensions as Numbskull's.
I won't be walking a dog, so I guess that means I can catch big fish.

[numbskull]

Very nice.

For anyone else interested, these were the dimensions I used.....

".......I got it wrong. Mine are 5''long, 3/4" at the nose, 1 1/8" at the belly. 1'' to first hook, 3.5" to second. wt is at 2 5/8" (I don't recall how much....forgot to write it down) and a 1/2 size M&D small tail weight. Used AWC since I had it (but didn't particularly like it....would use pine next time). The lip is a small lefty low slot, which is placed a shade above midline. The unrigged epoxied plug weighs 1.5 oz. Have not fished it yet."

I think the weight was 5-6 grams.

[NIB]

Geo,Thanks for the breakdown.I hope folks realize how much information is in that post..Builders and non builders could use to gain so much by understanding the basic's on how plugs work.Then again it might be to much info for some..
Tony Spina at Lex used to tail weight a lot of his designs.They where dogs on our flat water.When you had a little wind or white water they would shine.He made quite a few and different little 2 hook designs. I used to add a belly weight to some of em to stabilize em.They used to be some of my favorite plugs..Hahn also makes a little swimmer.Mine are from the old runs..They too had the two hook design but he used a little cupped blade.with no weight if I remember right.They worked good when flat.
Them little plugs cast amazingly well especially when tail weighted.Your going to fool some good fish wit em.Whether or not you can land em on 1/0's will be the fun part.I can recall one about 25 lbs standing on his tail and spitting one back at me one day before sunrise..Hooks where chewed up like a pretzel..I enjoyed the show most of all.You catch thousands of fish ,the details all meld into one..I can still see that fish laughin at me..
Skippy uses them owners on his plugs not.They won't bend,they might pull out, they are heavier.Something to look into..

[Raven]

Originally Posted by eastendlu

Man those look sweet George I will be talking to you soon about a question you asked me over a year ago i have an answer

secret

[numbskull]

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

[NIB]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

Could be something to that.Tony never sealed his stuff really well.He dipped the whole finished plug.It was finish and sealer all in one.
When they got heavy I actually like em better..
Most of my designs are built with castabilty in mind.Even in my first runs.I would put some pretty big shots of lead in them.As I evolved I started making em fatter trying to compensate for the lead.They swam well but I was not as successful with em.Last spring I used one of my older large Danny types and was pretty happy with the results.This stemmed from you making that thing you made that I am trying to duplicate.
Not sure if it's the size or the action.I do know it is easy to take a big fat pc of wood and make it swim well.There is so much to work with you can make it do anything you want.Like a BM Cowboy for instance. There does appear to be something else to it.I really think have a preference for skinnier designs.
One of the things that hit me when I first saw a Musso plug in person is they are not as large in all dimensions as I imagined.Like he took Danny's dimensions and kept the sand paper on em too long....From my conversations with Donny castabilty is very important.You make this big fat thing and it tumbles and cast's like a wet rag.Even juiced up with lead.There is so much wind resistance.I have learned so much about fishing plugs from making em. I am still learning..

[steelhead]

I think there is merit to what you say there about weight. The best danny plugs I make for slow water or where I want subtle wiggle at Very Slow retrieve rates are a fat bodied style the are a comfortable 3 ounces with bwlly weights and hooks, etc. . I also think that body shape comes in to play. My theory is that the narrow/wide/narrow profile helps create current vortexes that quickly destablize the plug allowing it to move right away.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

That makes absolutely perfect sense to me .. sitting lower in the water = more resistance = less pull for more action ..That finding is worth 1 million pretty paint jobs .. Once again its how the plug sits at rest in the water. Thank you George .. You make my brain hurt but its worth it .. I'm totally sold on your finding ...

[BigFish]

I keep castability in mind as well NIB when building. Its second however to the action I have in mind for the plug but if I can achieve great castability and desired action I find it a huge plus naturally. I was quite surprised by my 3 oz. Danny when I made it at how incredibly well it casts as most Dannies I have ever used tumble clumsily......mine goes tail first and the swimming action is great!

Love your posts George!

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by steelhead

My theory is that the narrow/wide/narrow profile helps create current vortexes that quickly destablize the plug allowing it to move right away.

Current Vortexes ... love this stuff .. I agree .. Problems start when your also seeking castability .. Always trying to find the optimum in everything but end up trading one for the other .

[NIB]

Originally Posted by steelhead

I think there is merit to what you say there about weight. The best danny plugs I make for slow water or where I want subtle wiggle at Very Slow retrieve rates are a fat bodied style the are a comfortable 3 ounces with bwlly weights and hooks, etc. . I also think that body shape comes in to play. My theory is that the narrow/wide/narrow profile helps create current vortexes that quickly destablize the plug allowing it to move right away.

That Narrow fat narrow design is a bassmaster design.He basically made a surface swimmer out of a sub surface swimmer design.
It still had roll thats why he painted em in solids with No eye's..
The fat belly worked with the lead to make a pivot point in a plug that was designed to snake thru the water.The lip could not pull the belly down so it did this tail wake thing..They casted pretty well and caught well when bait fish like herring or peanuts where present.There was the tendency to over do the proportions.One of my best producers was midly enhanced.It swam better when the water was right.
Beachmaster seemed to enlarge the shape of his Danny's in recent years.This keeps the plug from digging and snaking through the water as well as the earlier designs.Flap will tell ya.I agreed from the first time he mentioned it.
I have some 3+oz mac danny's from the old days.
Some of my favorites.AYC thin, they get snaking and it's hard to stop em.The right Danny is a good plug for when the water is right IMO.Perhaps thats why they are still one of my favorites.
I gonna make a thinned out forty to see if I can replicate the same action with a face that is more suited to subsurface action..

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

sounds right to me
great thread guys
it deserves to go in the favorites

[go4broke44]

thanks for the info numbskull, I was messing around on the lathe last night and ended up turning one of these, will let you know how it works out.

another thing I think helps with castability is putting the belly weight slightly aft of center, so that the weight is more towards the tail, where as if it was on center the plug could more easily "helicopter" trying to decide which end it wants to fly foward with.

[Jigman]

Originally Posted by Tagger

That makes absolutely perfect sense to me .. sitting lower in the water = more resistance = less pull for more action .....

That was my thought too. Lower in the water you have all of the lip and part of the nose of the plug working against the water. If the plug sits high, less of the face of the plug to work along with the lip.

Jigman

[Rockfish9]

All this kind of falls in line with something that I have been working on for years, It's a 9" jointed eel plug that I first made in the late 80's,I stoped making plugs for a few years so it went to the back burner.. that one was a piece of crap, eventualy, I narrowed it down and made it vey slim ( 3/4") and used a surfster lip, it sat in the water with the nose hanging straight down, it looked totaly like junk, but man did it fish, it's biggest downfall was in casting, it flew like a helicopter... last year I began experimenting with laminating cedar to maple,by doing so, I could fatten the plug to 7/8".... I found the perfect balance, now using a pikie #1 lip and sparcly weighting the mid section and tail, I have a plug that sits just above the surface,, perfecly level fishes great and casts well, I've eliminated the tail hook, for obvious reasons.... I've never actualy shown the plug alone, I have ,in the past posted pictures with it in a fishes maw...If I make it to plug fest, I'll show it to those that ask...

BTW, I epoxy seal this plug ( it is the only one that I do this way) to eliminate any issues with the difference in sealing the maple and cedar, it also helps seal the gorilla glue, although I have used it in the past on needlefish without issue...