Was He or Not

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I think it is a big variable. If this guy was a McCain style POW, the 5 for 1 swap wouldn't be the issue it is now...

The 5 for 1 swap is an issue primarily for political reasons. These guys were going to be let go within a year regardless. The military used them while they still held value.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

The 5 for 1 swap is an issue primarily for political reasons. These guys were going to be let go within a year regardless. The military used them while they still held value.

-spence

Source?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Source?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I've read it several places, one I quoted earlier who was a Bush adviser.

Given the Geneva conventions ruled to apply I don't think we can keep it open indefinitely once we're out of Afghanistan. They'd have to bring these guys to trial in the US which would go nowhere.

The whole process has been a joke. I read that the military commissions have only gotten 7 convictions, 2 were overturned at a cost of 120 million dollars EACH.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I think it is a big variable. If this guy was a McCain style POW, the 5 for 1 swap wouldn't be the issue it is now...

Apples and oranges. When we did prisoner exchanges with the North Vietnamese, they were soldiers of a nation that signed the Geneva Convention (I presume). Back then, we released soldiers. These guys are terrorists, and there's a difference.

You're right to call out hypocrisy directed at Obama for things that wouldn't get criticized if a Republican was in the Oval Office. I'm not sure this is a good example of that. I saw Senator Feinstein being very critcal of how it was handled, she's hardly a right-wing hack.

I'm glad the guy is back, let's find out what happened and let him face justice if necessary...

[Fly Rod]

Spence I really think U R right...he only put his weapon down and walked away to find the Taliban and the first person he came across he asked, " can U tell me how to seek out the Taliban." I think he wanted to learn how to grow poppy's knowing that when he got back to the good ole U S he could start farming a cash crop....want to hear another? LMAO...

I think that carrot juce I have been drinking fermented...LOL...

[spence]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Spence I really think U R right...he only put his weapon down and walked away to find the Taliban and the first person he came across he asked, " can U tell me how to seek out the Taliban." I think he wanted to learn how to grow poppy's knowing that when he got back to the good ole U S he could start farming a cash crop....want to hear another? LMAO...

I think that carrot juce I have been drinking fermented...LOL...

Evidence appears to indicate he wanted to help Afgan children, not switch teams...we'll see what they determine from his re-entry.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Apples and oranges. When we did prisoner exchanges with the North Vietnamese, they were soldiers of a nation that signed the Geneva Convention (I presume). Back then, we released soldiers. These guys are terrorists, and there's a difference.

These guys were Afgan Taliban, I don't think they were involved in any international terrorism. Doesn't mean they're nice chaps, but not the same as if they were alQaeda leadership.

You're right to call out hypocrisy directed at Obama for things that wouldn't get criticized if a Republican was in the Oval Office. I'm not sure this is a good example of that. I saw Senator Feinstein being very critcal of how it was handled, she's hardly a right-wing hack.

Some of this is genuine I'm sure but also some anger by Dems is a response to the GOP outrage machine they know these actions will provoke. It's amazing how fast they can get in front of a story and cement a false narrative that's pretty soon assumed as fact by everyone.

Fox's relentless attacks toward his parents is particularly disturbing.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

These guys were Afgan Taliban, I don't think they were involved in any international terrorism. Doesn't mean they're nice chaps, but not the same as if they were alQaeda leadership.



Some of this is genuine I'm sure but also some anger by Dems is a response to the GOP outrage machine they know these actions will provoke. It's amazing how fast they can get in front of a story and cement a false narrative that's pretty soon assumed as fact by everyone.

Fox's relentless attacks toward his parents is particularly disturbing.

-spence

"These guys were Afgan Taliban, I don't think they were involved in any international terrorism"

Do you not see the contradiction in that statement? Afghan Taliban are necessarily tied to Al Queda. Afghan Taliban have been in bed with Al Queda, giving them a safe haven, for years and years.

"not the same as if they were alQaeda leadership. "

True on its face, but the organization they belong to is closely affiloiated with Al Queda.

"Fox's relentless attacks toward his parents is particularly disturbing"

If they are attacking his parents, I agree 100%.

[PaulS]

I'm really conflicted over the whole thing. He may or may not have been crazy. His actions may have caused possibly up to 6 soldiers deaths. We have had to negotiate with terrorists.

I think this may be one of those times you hold your nose and do something.

I'm sure there will be hearings.

[Fly Rod]

I agree with buckman they were only pons use them while U can...if it is not them killing Americans there will be others...it is time the military gets to the deserter....do their investigation and bring the deserter to trial and if found guilty he would not be shot as was Eddie Slovik....this guy will just be put in prison to get fat and lazy.....oink! oink!!

[buckman]

This too will pass with many questions to remain unanswered . No charges will be filed for desertion and the 5 will go back to killing only this time they have more cred
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

God, imagine the let down if they determine he was mentally unstable at the time he left and decide not to court martial.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

God, imagine the let down if they determine he was mentally unstable at the time he left and decide not to court martial.

-spence

Or imagine your back pedaling if we find out Fox was right
Pretty pathetic that this may be his biggest foreign-policy achievement!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Or imagine your back pedaling if we find out Fox was right
Pretty pathetic that this may be his biggest foreign-policy achievement!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Fox is right about what?

-spence

[buckman]

If he is found guilty of desertion and he should be held accountable for the lives of the men that were lost looking for him. There are children growing up without fathers and wives growing up without husbands because of his actions. There was no need to parade the parents out in the Rosegarden other than for Obamas grandstanding.
The five that were released will guarantee loss of future lives of women and children in Afghanistan.
These women and children did not make a bad decision to put them in harms way.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

If he is found guilty of desertion and he should be held accountable for the lives of the men that were lost looking for him. There are children growing up without fathers and wives growing up without husbands because of his actions. There was no need to parade the parents out in the Rosegarden other than for Obamas grandstanding.

Today he's an active member of the US Army. To not recognize his return because he "could" have been a deserter would be finding him guilty before a trial. We don't do that. Every single military official I've seen has said get him home then we'll sort it out.

The five that were released will guarantee loss of future lives of women and children in Afghanistan.

1) You have no way of knowing this. 2) Considering the 10+ years of war in the area do you really think that 5 people, even if they were mid to high level Taliban, are going to make any difference?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Today he's an active member of the US Army. To not recognize his return because he "could" have been a deserter would be finding him guilty before a trial. We don't do that. Every single military official I've seen has said get him home then we'll sort it out.


1) You have no way of knowing this. 2) Considering the 10+ years of war in the area do you really think that 5 people, even if they were mid to high level Taliban, are going to make any difference?



-spence

" Recognize "??? I'm surprised the President didn't dress up as Rambo and claim he went in there and single-handedly save this poor dying soldiers life who was only trying to help the children ( pure speculation on your part )

You are one naïve person if you think these guys are not going to go back to the Taliban .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

" Recognize "??? I'm surprised the President didn't dress up as Rambo and claim he went in there and single-handedly save this poor dying soldiers life who was only trying to help the children ( pure speculation on your part )

Considering your view of the POTUS i'm not surprised at your surprise.

You are one naïve person if you think these guys are not going to go back to the Taliban .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Eventually I'm sure they will, that's not the point. The issue is should we detain them if it's likely they're not a significant threat to the USA. It brings up the larger question of what the Taliban is, was and what could be.

-spence

[buckman]

[QUOTE=spence;

Eventually I'm sure they will, that's not the point. The issue is should we detain them if it's likely they're not a significant threat to the USA. It brings up the larger question of what the Taliban is, was and what could be.

-spence[/QUOTE]

I'm going to have to ask you to quote the source that says that these guys are not a threat to the United States.
The Taliban are bad guys Spence hate to break the news to ya . I'm sure they're right behind the Republicans on the "war on women"
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

To not recognize his return because he "could" have been a deserter would be finding him guilty before a trial. We don't do that.

True, we don't do that. Or at least we should't.

But it's equally speculative of you to assume that these guys aren't a threat, or to assume that the soldier wandered off to feed hungry kids.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

True, we don't do that. Or at least we should't.

But it's equally speculative of you to assume that these guys aren't a threat, or to assume that the soldier wandered off to feed hungry kids.

The evidence available certainly indicates he became disillusioned by the wars impact on the Afghan civilians and particularly the children.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The evidence available certainly indicates he became disillusioned by the wars impact on the Afghan civilians and particularly the children.

-spence

And to a person not blinded by love of the sitting president, there is equally strong evidence that by virtue of being a "Taliban leader", these guys represent a serious threat.

I'm sure all the Afghan children, especially the little girls, will face better future prospects under the Taliban.

[spence]

Nobody is going to try and impeach a US President for getting a captive soldier home alive.

Reality check...

-spence

[Fishpart]

Desertion in time of war. I believe if you check the Manual of Courts Martial is a crime punishible by death.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

Desertion in time of war. I believe if you check the Manual of Courts Martial is a crime punishible by death.

Here's the thing…this entire event 5 years ago has been thoroughly investigated by the Army. The media frenzy wants to pretend it's happening in real-time.

I'd wager they have a pretty good idea of where it's all going.

-spence

[Raven]

seeing him in that leather bomber jacket made me ILL

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Raven

seeing him in that leather bomber jacket made me ILL

Yuck. Maybe he visited a "corpse-men". Yeah, he's a huge fan of the military...

[Jim in CT]

It is being reported that 2 of the 5 released detainees are currently wanted by the UN for war crimes. Not sure if it's true. Why wouldn't we have handed them over if we had them?

[scottw]

30 posts defending terrorists, a traitor/deserter and a lawless president...hit the trifecta on this one...good job Spence

[Jim in CT]

--"I am ashamed to be an american."
-- "The US army is the biggest joke ... It is the army of liars, backstabbers, fools and bullies."
-- "These people need help, yet what they get is the most conceited country in the world telling them that they are nothing and that they are stupid."
-- "The horror that is america is disgusting."
-quoted from emails sent by Bowe Bergdahl to his parents, three days before he walked away from his unit in search of the Taliban.

The true horror in this? This country that Bergdahl decribed as "ashamed" of, that he called a "joke", "conceited", and a "horror"...that terrible country sacrificed several young men in the search for Bergdahl. When his brother in arms voluntarily put themselves in harm's way trying to find him, was that conceited, horrible, a joke? Was it "disgusting"?


I hope we get to the facts here. I can certainly sympathize with a troubled person, inflicted with any of the typical human frailties, many of which are exacerbated in combat. But part of me is disgusted at the price we paid to get him back, especially the young American lives sacrificed to help what could be a disgrace of an American.

I wonder if Obama has learned any of this on the news yet.