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Old 02-20-2023, 05:28 AM   #31
Rmarsh
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Seems to me that going into the trades is... and has been disparaged by a majority of people in the academic world....and a job where you are getting your hands dirty and are physically challenged was considered to be for the 'not bright enough to go to college crowd".
Less and less of our youth consider going into carpentry.
It really doesnt pay that well...unless you go prevailing wage or union and....since it has no qualifying standards or licensure....as opposed to other trades... anyone can call themselves a carpenter
Now we are getting a huge influx of construction workers coming here from third world countries....willing to work very hard....harder than most Americans.....even the women are there. They work harder, longer and cheaper than our native sons. They didnt come here to play.......they are taking our jobs that we dont want to do anymore.

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Old 02-20-2023, 06:43 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rmarsh View Post
Seems to me that going into the trades is... and has been disparaged by a majority of people in the academic world....and a job where you are getting your hands dirty and are physically challenged was considered to be for the 'not bright enough to go to college crowd".
Less and less of our youth consider going into carpentry.
It really doesnt pay that well...unless you go prevailing wage or union and....since it has no qualifying standards or licensure....as opposed to other trades... anyone can call themselves a carpenter
Now we are getting a huge influx of construction workers coming here from third world countries....willing to work very hard....harder than most Americans.....even the women are there. They work harder, longer and cheaper than our native sons. They didnt come here to play.......they are taking our jobs that we dont want to do anymore.
While I don’t disagree, don’t forget who built this country.
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Old 02-20-2023, 07:39 AM   #33
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While I don’t disagree, don’t forget who built this country.
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Somebody built this country? Who? Should I assume you mean immigrants? No denying that.....but it's not the whole story.

Im closing in on fifty years in construction.....born and raised here.
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Old 02-20-2023, 10:23 AM   #34
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Well just came home from an early rise appt with a long time absolute PIA customer that is dear friends outlaw. Old widow. Do a lot of small repairs throughout house ( plumbing, elec, Capetnyry stuff. As a help to my buddy as he had reached breaking point with her few years ago. No time and every other repair main bailed on her in past. Certainly not for the money nor worth the aggravations. Her 40 yr old walk-in shower doors were leaking last week. Several trips to deal with silicone and sealing up temp until could get new doors ordered/ installed in my spare time. Spent several trips running around this week to find ones that would fit.
My boss reached his breaking point in regards to her this week as she was calling 4 times a day and texting non stop blowing up my phone while we hanging sheet rock together to see if ordered shower doors.
Well She wanted me to come over to help her order on line from Lowe's. Drag my ass out of bed to get there early this morning to do it before heading to job. She then decides she doesn't feel comfortable ordering on line and wants me to go to store to help her order some day this week. Then in same breath decides that she no longer wants to repair the sheet rock ceiling and walls that are falling down inside shower enclosure and then decides the shower doors seem to be sealed up and now doesn't do but wants me to come over asap and paint water stain on ceiling below
As if I'm sitting at home waiting to rush over every time she has a problem.
In fact this summer I was on another job and she kept calling and calling when I answered she crying her smoke detectors going off and she needs me. Well WTF do I look like the fire dept. 2 towns away? had to tell her to get out of house and try calling FD. Went and FD found faulty /expired smoke detector.

Try to politely tell her I could
No longer half ass waste my time or perform work for. Amd she tells me I am rude and ungrateful for all the work SHE provided me with. I charge her less than I make regular work which opposite way should be
And I'm rude
Just had to block her number after 14 calls since 7am.
Good ridence
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Old 02-20-2023, 10:44 AM   #35
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Seems to me that going into the trades is... and has been disparaged by a majority of people in the academic world....and a job where you are getting your hands dirty and are physically challenged was considered to be for the 'not bright enough to go to college crowd".
Less and less of our youth consider going into carpentry.
It really doesnt pay that well...unless you go prevailing wage or union and....since it has no qualifying standards or licensure....as opposed to other trades... anyone can call themselves a carpenter
Now we are getting a huge influx of construction workers coming here from third world countries....willing to work very hard....harder than most Americans.....even the women are there. They work harder, longer and cheaper than our native sons. They didnt come here to play.......they are taking our jobs that we dont want to do anymore.
I don't claim to be perfect but think I got a good eye for obvious errors.
Just ran into this yesterday
Sister in law's babby daddy ( one of them) and his Brazilian buddies are running a "carpentry business".
They doin a kitchen and deck job right around corner from me. He calls me last weekend in desperation to see if I can hook up sink/ stove as they don't know how and plumber wanted criminal money to do and was gonna be a month before could get to. so reluctantly got involved. Pecked at it over course of week and they finished up all their elevated deck work and watched
They were cranking and seemed competent.
Well they loaded out and I just checked around yesterday to compare work
They did a proper job framing but I feel
Bad for the home owner.
All treks boards. Done with hidden fasteners At least but some not straight, uneven spacing against picture frame board. Most with zero space. Can't wait to watch what happens when warms up.
On front steps had zero clue how to properly measure, calculate and cut risers. Treads vary 6 inches wide to 10 and same with the risers. To boot they screwed treads down with one screw in center of each board. I thought we're gonna roll right off on me walking up already, never mind when screws in new pt risers loosen up with time.
Then on the landing they just used I don't know maybe Sheetrock screws all sticking up and only one in middle of each. Good grief.
Professionally kindly pointed out issues to her.
She was appreciative and wants me to
Make right. Would rather get those guys back, help give them the guidance and advice on proper attention to details so maybe they can learn
Hard workers. Lack of skill knowledge, attention to details.
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Old 02-20-2023, 12:10 PM   #36
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Best way to help those guys is to tell them to forget everything they think they know..... before they can go forward and learn craftsmanship.
Mike I avoid our customers/homebuyers like the plague.....no small talk....exchanging of phone numbers.....or even names.
It's great!
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Old 02-21-2023, 06:16 AM   #37
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Construction businesses need a front man....someone to deal with the customers.
I worked on a very wealthy Jewish couples home....gutting kitchen and both baths and built two additions...a kitchen extension...and massive master bedroom and bathroom suite.....while they were living in the home...every day was an adventure.
I was hired by a well known former contractor very familiar with the upper class type of customer exteremely fussy and demanding...he was just the guy to listen to all their bitching and moaning about the dust and great at bull#^&#^&#^&#^&ting them about when I would be done. I have no patience for that.
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Old 02-21-2023, 07:16 AM   #38
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Construction businesses need a front man....someone to deal with the customers.
I worked on a very wealthy Jewish couples home....gutting kitchen and both baths and built two additions...a kitchen extension...and massive master bedroom and bathroom suite.....while they were living in the home...every day was an adventure.
I was hired by a well known former contractor very familiar with the upper class type of customer exteremely fussy and demanding...he was just the guy to listen to all their bitching and moaning about the dust and great at bull#^&#^&#^&#^&ting them about when I would be done. I have no patience for that.

Two weeks, two weeks…. :-)
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Old 02-21-2023, 09:17 AM   #39
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Well just came home from an early rise appt with a long time absolute PIA customer that is dear friends outlaw. Old widow. Do a lot of small repairs throughout house ( plumbing, elec, Capetnyry stuff. As a help to my buddy as he had reached breaking point with her few years ago. No time and every other repair main bailed on her in past. Certainly not for the money nor worth the aggravations. Her 40 yr old walk-in shower doors were leaking last week. Several trips to deal with silicone and sealing up temp until could get new doors ordered/ installed in my spare time. Spent several trips running around this week to find ones that would fit.
My boss reached his breaking point in regards to her this week as she was calling 4 times a day and texting non stop blowing up my phone while we hanging sheet rock together to see if ordered shower doors.
Well She wanted me to come over to help her order on line from Lowe's. Drag my ass out of bed to get there early this morning to do it before heading to job. She then decides she doesn't feel comfortable ordering on line and wants me to go to store to help her order some day this week. Then in same breath decides that she no longer wants to repair the sheet rock ceiling and walls that are falling down inside shower enclosure and then decides the shower doors seem to be sealed up and now doesn't do but wants me to come over asap and paint water stain on ceiling below
As if I'm sitting at home waiting to rush over every time she has a problem.
In fact this summer I was on another job and she kept calling and calling when I answered she crying her smoke detectors going off and she needs me. Well WTF do I look like the fire dept. 2 towns away? had to tell her to get out of house and try calling FD. Went and FD found faulty /expired smoke detector.

Try to politely tell her I could
No longer half ass waste my time or perform work for. Amd she tells me I am rude and ungrateful for all the work SHE provided me with. I charge her less than I make regular work which opposite way should be
And I'm rude
Just had to block her number after 14 calls since 7am.
Good ridence
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Yes, she's fired. Doesn't even qualify for the "difficulty tax" I would have tacked on to her bill....
I just dealt with a waterline shut off issue into a building with two condos. Water comes into basement and splits to different meters. Had to get the town to call dig safe and then jack hammer recently installed concrete sidewalk with yellow handicap plate in order to find the shut off. My client was fine, appreciative, and hopefully writing a check today. The other condo owner was an absolute nightmare, the worst I have had to deal with, ever... She even got into calling the DPW super and the Selectmans office... And this is all from my notifying her that her tenant would be without water while we effected the repair!!! I can't even bill her as she is not my client. Incessant texts and calls have stopped, but next contact from her I have decided to tell her she will need to send me a non-refundable $1500.00 retainer to even discuss any issues. And I have no intentions of working for her directly. At all. I am just trying to hold onto a residing job for two sides of the condo complex which involves her being one of four owners...

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.” – James Madison.
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Old 02-21-2023, 07:21 PM   #40
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You guys need to chill out,,, maybe this will help…

Lady of the house corners me on the job and tells me she really needs a change, she had that look in her eyes,,, yikes ! And she was hot!
I got that look a couple more times , I turned the heat up and finished that one earlier than scheduled….. phew….. made it out alive LOL …..
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Old 02-21-2023, 07:46 PM   #41
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You guys need to chill out,,, maybe this will help…

Lady of the house corners me on the job and tells me she really needs a change, she had that look in her eyes,,, yikes ! And she was hot!
I got that look a couple more times , I turned the heat up and finished that one earlier than scheduled….. phew….. made it out alive LOL …..
Boss and I joke about stuff like that all the time as he a buff stud and yet in the 12 yrs we been together crazy enough I don't think we have ever had a single customer either of us would touch with a 2x4..::::
Some of my buddies elsewhere have relayed film worthy adventures tho.. we have great customers, just not good looking.
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Old 02-21-2023, 10:55 PM   #42
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Yeah, I think this is where I will excuse myself from the conversation....

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.” – James Madison.
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Old 02-22-2023, 06:28 AM   #43
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I have not had anything like that happen to me but....a buddy of mine and I were building a deck for a wealthy customer....Jewish doctor. At break time the daughter... early twenties.... came outside and brought us some iced tea, she was obviously smitten with my friend. She was cute and he was single .... he told me he would ask her out. I warned him that she was a spoiled princess type and not in our socioeconomic class and to beware. .Fast forward...after her parents said she should not marry a carpenter he took accounting classes and after he got his degree they got married. He first had to convert to Judaism and wasnt allowed to celebrate Christmas with his two sisters.
He lasted two weeks at his new job before he couldnt stand it and quit. He was an excellent carpenter and he told her he was going to start his own business and would build a big new house for them right next door to her parents. She started to feel better...telling me he was no longer just a carpenter but a general contractor now.
Her new cars and diamond rings were never good enough and the rift between them grew until after two children and daily fighting they divorced. He later remarried to a poor catholic girl and is finally content.
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Old 02-22-2023, 07:27 AM   #44
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Construction businesses need a front man....someone to deal with the customers.
I worked on a very wealthy Jewish couples home....gutting kitchen and both baths and built two additions...a kitchen extension...and massive master bedroom and bathroom suite.....while they were living in the home...every day was an adventure.
I was hired by a well known former contractor very familiar with the upper class type of customer exteremely fussy and demanding...he was just the guy to listen to all their bitching and moaning about the dust and great at bull#^&#^&#^&#^&ting them about when I would be done. I have no patience for that.
My worst experience with a customer was years ago in Apponog Warwick. Guy had a house on the back side of Apponog Cove. About 120 foot drop to the water and he wanted a terraced stairway down to the water. I gave him a price based on what I found when I started digging the footings.
Guess what? The hill was an old junk yard. Literally full of car parts and old car frames. No way to get equipment in to move the stuff so I would have had to carry everything out by hand.

I walked away from the job without getting paid a dime and I had dug 12 footings. Guy was a total A$$hat.

No boat, back in the suds.
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Old 02-22-2023, 07:43 AM   #45
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Boss and I joke about stuff like that all the time as he a buff stud and yet in the 12 yrs we been together crazy enough I don't think we have ever had a single customer either of us would touch with a 2x4..::::
Some of my buddies elsewhere have relayed film worthy adventures tho.. we have great customers, just not good looking.
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Putting in a stockade fence once and the lady next door comes over and asks "Do you need help? It's July and about 90 with 90% humidity so I said "No, this is really hard work". She says: No I mean do you need HELP?" She bats her eyes at me. Now she's about 5' 3" and 300 pounds. I politely declined, finished the job and got the hell out of there as fast as possible.

No boat, back in the suds.
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Old 02-26-2023, 07:03 AM   #46
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It's interesting... that when you work for certain segments of society....you will observe patterns of behaviour. I once worked for a contractor that had connections with the Jewish population in the area. I started noticing some similar traits after months and years of working on their homes. One wealthy couple had a live-in maid and a driver/errand guy with a list of jobs they were required to perform daily. Within days of starting the huge remodel of their home, the lady of the house was asking me to do domestic chores while I was "there". Not understanding that I was a skilled craftsman...not a pee-on. Pretty sure they didnt understand the difference. Carry items to her car.....bring up bottled water from the basement.....and a lot more stupid stuff.
The maid would lock the door behind me everytime i went out to my truck for a tool....told me she was just doing her job as instructed by Mr. ***. After about the fourth or fifth time......I pounded on the door hard enough to shake the house....when the maid and the Mrs. came running to see....I told them if it happened again...I would leave and not come back. Message sent and received. There are times you have to stand up for yourself and demand respect.
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Old 02-27-2023, 04:59 AM   #47
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Other domestic chores that Ive been asked to do while also remodeling......start the oven at 3pm so the potatoes can bake, walk the dog on my lunch break, load luggage into the car for overnight trip, build a coffin for the dog and put it in the car with the dog for his final trip to the vet.....remove plywood coffin from the family car and place in hole dug by errand guy...that was only as deep as the coffin so had to redig ......and thats not all!
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Old 02-27-2023, 07:14 PM   #48
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We were doing a remodel in Little Compton a while back and the home owner (she was a 50 something business woman) asked me to switch her laundry when the buzzer went off. I must have had a look on my face when she asked, she said to me as serious as a heart attack....don't be shy, we all wear underwear. I was a bit shocked but I guess some people have no shame. 20 minutes after she left the buzzer went off and I had the laborer switch it. When she got home she was surprised I actually did it. I explained to her that the kid working with me did it she called me a chicken s$%t. I can't imagine being asked to do all those chores for a customer.
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Old 03-01-2023, 06:21 AM   #49
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When it came time to gut out the master bedroom bath, the customer had not yet removed the contents of the vanity cabinets even after being informed several days before. I asked what she wanted done with all the stuff in them...so we could continue stripping to bare walls. She asked to see what was in the cabinets so she could decide on whether to keep or dispose of the dozens of items.....she continued eating her breakfast.....while we waited. When she came across an opened roll of mints she asked if me or my brother wanted them!
Was it an act of kindness....or a complete lack of self awareness.
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Old 03-03-2023, 06:01 AM   #50
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Math and reading scores are down all over the country. Our educational system is going in the wrong direction. I think a return to the basics of reading, writing, and mathematics is in order. Have you noticed how kids today spell? Is it to be cool... or they really dont know or care?

Carpenters helpers may not need to know much.......but to excel advance and lead as a builder and tradesman those skills are essential.
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Old 03-03-2023, 06:57 AM   #51
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What’s it measure ? Two little marks after the 15…… you’re fired…..
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Old 03-03-2023, 07:09 AM   #52
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What’s it measure ? Two little marks after the 15…… you’re fired…..

Ive seen guys hold rafter stock up and draw cuts instead of learning to use the tables on a framing square.... and most never heard of Pythagorian theorem. Cutting stair stringers is another task those without math skills fail miserably at. Reading a ruler can be a big challenge for the poorly educated.
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Old 03-03-2023, 07:39 AM   #53
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What’s it measure ? Two little marks after the 15…… you’re fired…..

I had a young guy from Guatemala helping me...nice kid but I noticed
a lot of his baseboard cuts were either too short or too long by about an eighth of an inch. I took him aside and marked on a scrap of wood a scaled up drawing of one inch, illustrated with sixteenths, eighths, quarters, etc labeled each one. He started cutting more accurately soon after that.
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Old 03-03-2023, 07:46 AM   #54
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Not being able to read a ruler is nothing new.
I remember in the 80s using a giant rule to teach guys what those little marks on the ruler were, pointing at them and everyone calling them out “9/16”.
I also remember two of my guys arguing around the corner from me “It’s wrong” “I cut it 98 and a half” “ I didn’t want a half inch, I wanted it 8/16”.
The metric system eliminates all that.
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Old 03-03-2023, 07:55 AM   #55
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Not being able to read a ruler is nothing new.
I remember in the 80s using a giant rule to teach guys what those little marks on the ruler were, pointing at them and everyone calling them out “9/16”.
I also remember two of my guys arguing around the corner from me “It’s wrong” “I cut it 98 and a half” “ I didn’t want a half inch, I wanted it 8/16”.
The metric system eliminates all that.
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The construction industry is still far from converting over to the metric system....maybe someday. In the meantime learning to read a ruler in British imperial system or US customary system is easy...if you have two brain cells to rub together. Good to exercise the intellect a little even if it hurts

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Old 03-03-2023, 08:15 AM   #56
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The metric equivalent of a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood is 1219.2mm X 2438.4mm......and 16" o.c. becomes 406.4 mm....so not a such agood idea... imo
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:59 AM   #57
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I worked with a couple of Austrians framing years ago, they had learned in the apprentice program in Austria and moved here. They said it’s much easier not to deal with fractions and sorta base 12 math.
Metric plywood is 1200 x 2400
Centers can be
300 it’s around a foot
400 roughly 16”
or 600 around 2’
And the engineering calcs are easier
Roof pitches are x in 10 so as long as you know the Pythagorean theorem it’s basic math.
Most of the world does it except for socket drive sizes which are 1/4, 3/8 and half.

I don’t think we’ll have to deal with it
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Old 03-03-2023, 09:33 AM   #58
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Math and reading scores are down all over the country. Our educational system is going in the wrong direction. I think a return to the basics of reading, writing, and mathematics is in order. Have you noticed how kids today spell? Is it to be cool... or they really dont know or care?

Carpenters helpers may not need to know much.......but to excel advance and lead as a builder and tradesman those skills are essential.
Listen, I once worked with 2 guys who were college grads but couldn't read an analog clock. I'm not kidding.

No boat, back in the suds.
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Old 03-03-2023, 10:50 AM   #59
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Math and reading scores are down all over the country. Our educational system is going in the wrong direction. I think a return to the basics of reading, writing, and mathematics is in order. Have you noticed how kids today spell? Is it to be cool... or they really dont know or care?

Carpenters helpers may not need to know much.......but to excel advance and lead as a builder and tradesman those skills are essential.
I don’t mean to get political here but it appears to me that the politicians that make the funding decisions for schools are more interested in what bathroom a kid should be using, what books to ban (that promote individual thought and free thinking) and inserting their religious beliefs as opposed to actually giving todays children a solid educational foundation. The reason for all of this is to keep the ruling class in power and cripple the working class and to distract us from the real issues of this country by divisive social issues.
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Old 03-03-2023, 11:19 AM   #60
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I worked with a couple of Austrians framing years ago, they had learned in the apprentice program in Austria and moved here. They said it’s much easier not to deal with fractions and sorta base 12 math.
Metric plywood is 1200 x 2400
Centers can be
300 it’s around a foot
400 roughly 16”
or 600 around 2’
And the engineering calcs are easier
Roof pitches are x in 10 so as long as you know the Pythagorean theorem it’s basic math.
Most of the world does it except for socket drive sizes which are 1/4, 3/8 and half.

I don’t think we’ll have to deal with it
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Good stuff Pete.....More metric use in the cabinet shop where i worked with some materials and equipment.....just not the shop drawings of millwork. Stuff like a 2'6 x 6'8 door will be a standard for a while as well as our cabinet and appliance sizes.

I have a complete set of metric tools....the depth adjustment on my festool saw is metric. Learning both systems is worthwhile even if just for the mental exercise..
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