Movie 13 Hours will re-open Benghazi discussion

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

What you fail to realize is Hillary is not going to be the Democratic Party candidate.
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Do you have any polls outside of Iowa or NH, that show Bernie anywhere near her?

I would love nothing more than to see Bernie as the candidate. I see no indication that it's mathematically possible.

Iowa and New Hampshire have a long history of going for fringe candidates (both parties) who quickly flame out.

And if NH goes for Bernie,m they need a new motto for their license plates, because "live free or die" doesn't describe a state that voted twice for Weird Harold and then went for a socialist.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Do you have any polls outside of Iowa or NH, that show Bernie anywhere near her?

I would love nothing more than to see Bernie as the candidate. I see no indication that it's mathematically possible.

Iowa and New Hampshire have a long history of going for fringe candidates (both parties) who quickly flame out.

And if NH goes for Bernie,m they need a new motto for their license plates, because "live free or die" doesn't describe a state that voted twice for Weird Harold and then went for a socialist.

If there's one thing I have learned on my short time on this planet is that there are 2 types of people. People who think in black and white and people who think in grey. Black and white rely on solid facts and never deviate. People who think in the grey use facts and also connect the dots.

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

If there's one thing I have learned on my short time on this planet is that there are 2 types of people. People who think in black and white and people who think in grey. Black and white rely on solid facts and never deviate. People who think in the grey use facts and also connect the dots.

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
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Bernie is no corporate shill. I agree it's not good if a candidate has been bought by big business. Where you and I disagree, is that I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to be declaring war against business, either. In this country, lots of people derive lots of benefits from big business.

I worked at Travelers, Aetna, and The Hartford. Huge businesses. Tens of thousands of good jobs. On top o fthat, they were good corporate citizens who donated big $$ to local communities, gave employees time off to donate time to charities like Habitat For Humanity, and encouraged charitable giving by matching contributions taht we made to charities. These companies will pay for employees to get additional college degrees. Evil? Hardly.

Are Cruz and Rubio known liars?

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Are Cruz and Rubio known liars?

Nope. But are they Corperate shills?? Look at their donors.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Nope. But are they Corperate shills?? Look at their donors.
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isn't Ben & Jerry's Bernie's corporate sponsor?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

isn't Ben & Jerry's Bernie's corporate sponsor?

His top sponsors are all labor unions. I guess no one ever got in trouble because politicians were beholden to labor unions...public union pensions and healthcare benefits, rewarded to unions by the same democrats the unions got elected, are not putting any strain on cities and states, nope...

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by scottw

isn't Ben & Jerry's Bernie's corporate sponsor?

Ok. He has what... One? Do you think Bernie is going to be beholden to an ice cream company?
Last I heard there was no issue with an ice cream company being too big to fail, being a huge polluter of the environment, a threat to people's retirement funds, able to profit from a foreign war, etc...

It might make you fat.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Ok. He has what... One?


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don't get me wrong...I like ice cream

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

A thoughtful, fair post. Except your last point, IMHO. It's common to dither while worrying about collateral damage, but when Americans are literally fighting for their lives? i don't think that happens every day.

But we didn't even try. If we got F-16s there, and they said they couldn't do anything because of the proximity of the annex to civilians, or because they couldn't tell friend from foe, that's one thing. But we didn't do anything, as far as I can tell. 12 hours is a long, long time.

When we worry about collateral damage, it's usually when we are trying to see if we can kill a specific terrorist from the air, in what is more or less a passive target at the time. In that case, you can make a compelling argument that collateral damage mnight not be worth the objective. I don't know that moral calculus holds when you are talking about supporting Americans on the ground who are about to be overrun. We don't typically worry so much about collateral damage in that situation.

In any event, collateral damage was never a consideration in this case, because despite the fact we had 12 hours, we never got that far to assess what the collateral damage might have been. There were no assets on the scene, even after 12 hours. It blows my mind. That's what I cannot understand. Nor can I understand why so many people don't feel that frustration.

I don't claim to be politically neutral in this. But when it took the feds 3 days to get water to the victims of hurricane Katrina, I was very, very critical of Bush, because he absolutely deserved it. I'm capable of criticizing Republicans who are incompetent. I don't see some of the hard-core libs here showing that ability, no matter what Hilary or Obama do. It's something to see.

I can go back and sadly find instances where that may have been the case - not using maximum firepower and ignoring collateral damage when American forces may be overrun. Yes, both AFG and Iraq were full of instances where institutionally the decision was made to not use the most firepower available, even when it was the correct tool for the job. My point, not properly fleshed out, was that there was no real attempt made, when the fit hit the shan. Assets were available, that even on 1 hour alert, could have been on station in time to make a difference, at least in half the Americans killed. If those assets were not available then someone dropped the ball. If those assets were available but not put on high alert or dispatched to the area, then someone dropped the ball or they decided not to. The military does respond to issues with diplomatic personnel, maybe not contractors, but certainly diplomatic personnel. I really don't care who dropped the ball, other than to identify them, publicly if necessary, to see that it does not happen again. Commanders of all types get canned for doing minuscule crap but rarely do the higher Civ / Mil leaders get canned when they eff up.

Originally Posted by wdmso

It's all about Obama I get it.. seems another topic were logic and reason need not apply. Answer this where was support going to land to engage? How did everyone else get out? And using your logic if a soldier gets killed in Afghanistan at the start of an attack it's diffrent if they get killed 12 hrs into a fight. you feel the were abandoned. Because. Our aircraft can time warp from mission to mission and never miss
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Nope

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Do you think Bernie is going to be beholden to an ice cream company?

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I think if he announced free government supplied Ben & Jerry's he'd lock up the nomination today....


maybe get his own flavors...Bernie Brickle and Sanders Swirl

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
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feel the Bern baby!!!

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe;1091189

Time will tell, but my grey thinking has Sanders winning. In fact I felt this before he even announced his presidency. Show me another candidate that is not a corporate shill or a pathological liar.
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Donald Trump ... And he's got FU money . I'm thinking he isn't going to be bought
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