Colorado baker ordered to serve gay wedding or face fines

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

TDF Not sure that's a good analogy.

A wedding cake for the most part is a commodity item. Sure there are basic ones and fancy ones but it's a generally accepted service that vendors provide to the community. I'm not aware of any provision that you actually have to be getting married to order a wedding cake.

A glass swastika would be a one off special request and an odd one at that. I've been to Nebe's shop recently and while there are various vases, bowls, ornaments, paperweights and other non-functional yet beautiful things any bongs? they all have a generally accepted artistic or functional purpose and are standard offerings of his business or any other glass makers business.

It's not the same thing.


-spence

it's exactly the same thing....he makes a number of items that he stocks his shelves and show cases with, they could just as easily be cookies and crumpets(standard offerings) as they are ornaments and paperweights...pretty sure bakers consider themselves to be artistic as well and wedding cakes are not things they make and stick in the show case hoping someone comes by ...I'm not aware of any provision that you actually have to have a wedding cake to get married either, but you do need a marriage license and apparently, for now, if you are a gay couple you can't get one of those in bigoted Colorado, weddings cakes are a traditional wedding/marriage accompaniment, not sure if they are a traditional civil union ceremony feature......

from what I can decipher from Eben's posts, put in a similar position...he'd either lie to them and say he can't make the item in question....or charge them double for the item and disclaim any responsibility for the creation of the object.....good to have options

the symbol might be a bad analogy because it would likely not be a denial based on the race, gender or orientation of the requester but there are other examples that would provide better analogies which go to the argument, which is whether he, as the business owner, has the right to refuse to make something and if a judge may compel him to make something that he might disagree with... and if his right to refuse to make something or be compelled to make something that he disagrees with by the Judge supersedes the right of the couple and Judge to force him to make it when...honestly...they could and should go somewhere else...they are perfectly entitled to make their experience public and let the bigot baker's business suffer whatever losses of business it might incur as a result...

the story has almost nothing to do with a wedding cake

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by scottw

it's exactly the same thing....he makes a number of items that he stocks his shelves and show cases with, they could just as easily be cookies and crumpets(standard offerings) as they are ornaments and paperweights...pretty sure bakers consider themselves to be artistic as well and wedding cakes are not things they make and stick in the show case hoping someone comes by ...I'm not aware of any provision that you actually have to have a wedding cake to get married either, but you do need a marriage license and apparently, for now, if you are a gay couple you can't get one of those in bigoted Colorado, weddings cakes are a traditional wedding/marriage accompaniment, not sure if they are a traditional civil union ceremony feature......

from what I can decipher from Eben's posts, put in a similar position...he'd either lie to them and say he can't make the item in question....or charge them double for the item and disclaim any responsibility for the creation of the object.....good to have options

the symbol might be a bad analogy because it would likely not be a denial based on the race, gender or orientation of the requester but there are other examples that would provide better analogies which go to the argument, which is whether he, as the business owner, has the right to refuse to make something and if a judge may compel him to make something that he might disagree with... and if his right to refuse to make something or be compelled to make something that he disagrees with by the Judge supersedes the right of the couple and Judge to force him to make it when...honestly...they could and should go somewhere else...they are perfectly entitled to make their experience public and let the bigot baker's business suffer whatever losses of business it might incur as a result...

the story has almost nothing to do with a wedding cake

What this boils down to is that I make certain things.. Vases, Bowls, Etc… The baker makes Cakes. I would never in a million years deny a piece to that i make or have in stock to a gay couple… Custom orders are a slippery slope no matter who is ordering it and I should have been more clear on that. I charge more for any custom order as opposed to a piece that i make repetitively.. there is time to design the piece, i might have to make 2 or 3 to get a good one, etc….. so no matter what, no matter who or what the person wants, the moment you put the words 'special order', 'custom commission', etc… in front of me, i am going to sing a different tune……Any artist would say the same answer, unless they only do custom work, then their price structure is geared for that all the time.

My business is so complex, sometimes i don't even know how to describe what i do to people. One day i am making lighting parts for a lamp company, the next i am making huge works for architects, the other day i am teaching 8 year old kids how to make christmas ornaments…. so yes… it is nice to have options

Never in a million years would i turn someone away from my studio who came in and pointed at something on my shelves that I make because of race, sexual preference or religious beliefs… In fact, i even taught your daughters a class last year, so that says a lot….

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

In fact, i even taught your daughters a class last year, so that says a lot….

they love you too and still talk about that trip, the ornaments are hanging in the window in our living room and look great...

you are very clear that you would not have done what the baker did in this instance, that's not the question, the question is whether the baker had or should have the right to say no...

to try to pick an easy example for you that might relate as this law pertains to race, religion and orientation, I don't know this for certain but if you happen to be pro-choice....and some representatives of a religious group walk through your door and want to purchase one of your more elaborate sculptures for the centerpiece of their upcoming pro-life rally and fund raising dinner...

should you have the right to refuse to sell that object to them if you'd would prefer that your name and artwork not be associated with a cause or event that you might disagree with? ....y/n

should a judge, if you decide that you do not want your name or work associated with that event be able to force you to make or sell that object or face a fine ?....y/n


should be a pretty simple yes/no.... without wandering off into bong talk

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by scottw

they love you too and still talk about that trip, the ornaments are hanging in the window in our living room and look great...

you are very clear that you would not have done what the baker did in this instance, that's not the question, the question is whether the baker had or should have the right to say no...

to try to pick an easy example for you that might relate as this law pertains to race, religion and orientation, I don't know this for certain but if you happen to be pro-choice....and some representatives of a religious group walk through your door and want to purchase one of your more elaborate sculptures for the centerpiece of their upcoming pro-life rally and fund raising dinner...

should you have the right to refuse to sell that object to them if you'd would prefer that your name and artwork not be associated with a cause or event that you might disagree with? ....y/n

should a judge, if you decide that you do not want your name or work associated with that event be able to force you to make or sell that object or face a fine ?....y/n


should be a pretty simple yes/no.... without wandering off into bong talk

Scott. I don't give a #^&#^&#^&#^& what people do in their lives. I wouldn't turn anyone down for anything I make. I live my life and I let people live their lives. Live and let live.

It's really simple and allows me to sleep very well at night.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by scottw

they love you too and still talk about that trip, the ornaments are hanging in the window in our living room and look great...

you are very clear that you would not have done what the baker did in this instance, that's not the question, the question is whether the baker had or should have the right to say no...

to try to pick an easy example for you that might relate as this law pertains to race, religion and orientation, I don't know this for certain but if you happen to be pro-choice....and some representatives of a religious group walk through your door and want to purchase one of your more elaborate sculptures for the centerpiece of their upcoming pro-life rally and fund raising dinner...

should you have the right to refuse to sell that object to them if you'd would prefer that your name and artwork not be associated with a cause or event that you might disagree with? ....y/n

should a judge, if you decide that you do not want your name or work associated with that event be able to force you to make or sell that object or face a fine ?....y/n


should be a pretty simple yes/no.... without wandering off into bong talk

Oh.. Yes or no.

No! No one should be discriminated against based on sexual preference, race or religion. Period.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

sooo....

no....you should not have the right to refuse to sell that object to them if you'd would prefer that your name and artwork not be associated with a cause or event that you might disagree with?

and presumably

yes... a judge should, if you decide that you do not want your name or work associated with that event be able to force you to make or sell that object or face a fine ?....

interesting....I guess "live and let live" does not apply to the baker? doesn't tolerance go both ways?

"I wouldn't turn anyone down for anything I make. I live my life and I let people live their lives. Live and let live."

if this is true you should have no opinion regarding the actions of the baker....but you were quite explicit in your condemnation

is he not being discriminated against by the judge and couple over his religious/moral views and having their beliefs forced on him? are they bigots? you mentioned earlier that you had a real problem with religions tending to "force" their views on others....does this also apply to the couple and the judge?

"No! No one should be discriminated against based on sexual preference, race or religion. Period."

this is one of those statements that sounds great when stated initially...then you start applying reality to it and it doesn't make a lot of sense....there is plenty of discrimination that exists..some is attacked and some is protected

the baker and the couple could have been tolerant of each other's beliefs and parted ways...one party chose to sue and have their views forced on the other by the State....over a cake ...or was it?