The Antifa Myth

[Pete F.]

We should be scared

“An essential step in the fascist march to acceptance and power was to persuade law-and-order conservatives and members of the middle class to tolerate fascist violence as a harsh necessity in the face of Left provocation.”
Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism" (2004)
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Get rid of qualified immunity.

Surely discuss it

Originally Posted by Ian

Start the conversation without all the BS noise about how the conversation gets invalidated by riots

Peaceful assembly and protest WHEN THEY HAVE COMPLETELY LEGIT POINTS get dented pretty hard when others co-opt the movement with throwing bricks and looting businesses.

Originally Posted by Pete F.

They drove the rector off and disrupted an event, supporting a constitutionally given right to assemble organized by St Johns by using tear gas, rubber bullets and flashbangs to drive them off St Johns grounds for a campaign photo event.
Wrong on many levels.
Perhaps you can justify lining them up and shooting them to keep people safe.

It was stupid, like many things.

Originally Posted by wdmso

TRUMP DEFENDER pull your head from his a s s .. police have a job and the military have a job and neither over lap ... let the police do their job and the military to theirs .fight wars .. you acting as if the United states has never seen unrest ..

You'd love to see dead protesters and applaud while it was happening and you think something is wrong with me.... its comical ..

I have no issue with shooting looters it will only take one ,,,but like most things you see looting and protest as one in the same ... just like police and the military

Trump should offer you a job you'll fit right in.

Would be good if some politicians did not create open space for people angry to vent there frustrations looting and killing. Probably could have stopped at NG MP and presence forces. Probably could have stopped the protestors from surrounding Di Blasio's People's House demanding his resignation.

NG and RA SHOULDN'T NEED to be on the streets

Originally Posted by Pete F.

We should be scared

“An essential step in the fascist march to acceptance and power was to persuade law-and-order conservatives and members of the middle class to tolerate fascist violence as a harsh necessity in the face of Left provocation.”
Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism" (2004)
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Yep - if you are against hard left violence you are a fascist. Even if you are against hard right violence. FFS

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

We should be scared

“An essential step in the fascist march to acceptance and power was to persuade law-and-order conservatives and members of the middle class to tolerate fascist violence as a harsh necessity in the face of Left provocation.”
Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism" (2004)
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Originally Posted by JohnR

Yep - if you are against hard left violence you are a fascist. Even if you are against hard right violence. FFS

It won't happen over night, but the slope we are on has gotten a lot more slippery. The conditions that sparked these protests, a lack of racial justice and an increasingly militarized environment in this country exist, and Tweety has done nothing but exacerbate the situation.

We now see how Tweety and his followers who share his authoritarian views respond to civil unrest that resulted from genuine grievances. What will they do if protests erupt if this administration tries to postpone the election, suppress the vote in Democratic areas, refuses to accept its result if he loses, or are likely to occur if he wins? Even if he loses the election, Tweety will remain president until January 20, 2021.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Yep - if you are against hard left violence you are a fascist. Even if you are against hard right violence. FFS

You seem to continue to operate under an assumption that many people think Antifa violence is acceptable. Noting that they're totally overblown isn't condoning behavior, it's putting it in perspective and should be seen in context of all violence where it is relatively small.

The problem is when people like Trump fixate on Antifa for political purposes, the right-wing media beats the Antifa drum and now you have a portion of the country softened to social media hoaxes and believing busloads of Antifa are heading to their suburbs to loot the rich people. It's just sowing more division and mistrust.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

It's just sowing more division and mistrust.

One of the main goals of ATIFA.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

One of the main goals of ATIFA.

And if that's the case why promote them to the big boys table before they're ready? He's just helping their cause.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

One of the main goals of ATIFA.

Youtube right
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[Ian]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Peaceful assembly and protest WHEN THEY HAVE COMPLETELY LEGIT POINTS get dented pretty hard when others co-opt the movement with throwing bricks and looting businesses.

So start small. Don’t let it get dented here. You know they are different, defend it.

This is a hard one to navigate, because otherwise, we make it too easy to manipulate the system into never fixing itself. Every time someone protests a legit gripe, send in some rioters so no one believes them. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, I’m just saying that if you’re willing to associate the two, you allow that to be a possibility.

The other choice here is to develop some habits where we distance the two conversations, discuss them on their own merits, and vigorously defend each thread from being poisoned by the other.

But both groups of opinions on this site are guilty of not doing this, heck I even failed to do it the other day when I found myself devolving into a rant about trump during a message that started about protests, right after saying we should be better about separating this stuff, so I know I’m not perfect.

BUT if we each admitted that the topics themselves had merit without spilling over to the others, the sharp minds here would probably get somewhere closer to consensus, and might actually move some opinions forward.

Instead we cut the meaty dialog around the merits of the protests short by saying things like everyone is an animal that can’t function in society because they just start rioting, or all cops are bahstads.

And that’s fooked up
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[Pete F.]

What's wrong with a little violence instead of civil discourse, look at what the occupant of the WH has said about it.

“Part of the problem . . . is no one wants to hurt each other anymore.”

“I’d like to punch him in the face.”

“Maybe he should have been roughed up.”

“I don’t know if I’ll do the fighting myself or if other people will.”

“The audience hit back. That’s what we need a little bit more of.”

“If you do [hurt him], I’ll defend you in court, don’t worry about it.”

“I’ll beat the crap out of you.”

“Knock the crap out of him, would you? I promise you, I will pay your legal fees.”

And when something actually happens, Bunker Baby takes the fam, hides in the bunker, watches his shows and tweets, then emerges with an attack on protesters to create a photo op to show how tough he is.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

What's wrong with a little violence instead of civil discourse, look at what the occupant of the WH has said about it.

“Part of the problem . . . is no one wants to hurt each other anymore.”

“I’d like to punch him in the face.”

“Maybe he should have been roughed up.”

“I don’t know if I’ll do the fighting myself or if other people will.”

“The audience hit back. That’s what we need a little bit more of.”

“If you do [hurt him], I’ll defend you in court, don’t worry about it.”

“I’ll beat the crap out of you.”

“Knock the crap out of him, would you? I promise you, I will pay your legal fees.”

And when something actually happens, Bunker Baby takes the fam, hides in the bunker, watches his shows and tweets, then emerges with an attack on protesters to create a photo op to show how tough he is.

We've heard all this . . . several times. It gets boring.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

We've heard all this . . . several times. It gets boring.

What’s getting boring is the consistent incompetence of Tweety and his inability to lead.
Esper’s public statements today show that Tweety is not doing much in the way of good internal politics to maintain cohension on his team, beyond demanding loyalty.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

What’s getting boring is the consistent incompetence of Tweety and his inability to lead.
Esper’s public statements today show that Tweety is not doing much in the way of good internal politics to maintain cohension on his team, beyond demanding loyalty.
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He's doing a great job. US should have 100 million vaccine doses by end of year, Fauci says.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

He's doing a great job. US should have 100 million vaccine doses by end of year, Fauci says.

Another of your lies.
He said could and he also said there's a chance coronavirus vaccine may not provide immunity for very long.
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[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

We've heard all this . . . several times. It gets boring.

The more you hear that rhetoric, the more it seems ok and normal to those that follow this game show clown like he has a clue. Your blue run on font mind numbing posts are far more boring, in fact if I need to get to sleep, I just get on this board and zzzzzzzzzzz.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

The more you hear that rhetoric, the more it seems ok and normal to those that follow this game show clown like he has a clue. Your blue run on font mind numbing posts are far more boring, in fact if I need to get to sleep, I just get on this board and zzzzzzzzzzz.

Glad to be of help. Even though you don't read them.

[Pete F.]

FBI arrested 3 Boogaloo Bois for terrorism in Vegas, with Molotov cocktails on their way to incite violence at a protest.
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[Pete F.]

And I'll use your's
Though much shorter than Bingbong and Molyneux and not full of baloney

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

And I'll use your's
Though much shorter than Bingbong and Molyneux and not full of baloney

This is totally inferior propaganda. Bongino and Molyneux don't just say stuff (no wonder you like this tripe video--it uses your just say stuff method) Bongino and Molyneux give detailed, fact and evidence based presentations. Your stuff is propaganda for those who have short attention spans.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

This is totally inferior propaganda. Bongino and Molyneux don't just say stuff (no wonder you like this tripe video--it uses your just say stuff method) Bongino and Molyneux give detailed, fact and evidence based presentations. Your stuff is propaganda for those who have short attention spans.

A head of state using a standing army to occupy an American city, compel citizens off the street, stifle free expression and assembly, using paramilitary forces to smoke clergy out of their churches at the head of state’s whim, is pretty much the founders’ nightmare.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

A head of state using a standing army to occupy an American city, compel citizens off the street, stifle free expression and assembly, using paramilitary forces to smoke clergy out of their churches at the head of state’s whim, is pretty much the founders’ nightmare.
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That's not what happened.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

That's not what happened.

It is what happened

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

A head of state using a standing army to occupy an American city, compel citizens off the street, stifle free expression and assembly, using paramilitary forces to smoke clergy out of their churches at the head of state’s whim, is pretty much the founders’ nightmare.
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This is juuuuuust a tad sensationalized... just a liiiiiiiiiiiittle bit....
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[Got Stripers]

I guess Antifa is having recruiting issues, it’s sad when you have to hire 75 year olds to do your dirty work. It’s also sad and scary we have a president so loopy he signs on to every wacky conspiracy theory that resonates with him.

[Pete F.]

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

It is what happened

What you said is not what happened:

"A head of state using a standing army"

There was no standing army being used against the will of a state governor. Washington D.C. is not a state. The President as commander-in-chief of the District of Columbia's national guard has the legal, constitutional power to use it in that city. The original notion of the Founders, that the central government did not have the authority to impose the power of a standing federal army on the states and the free citizens therein, never applied to D.C.

to occupy an American city, compel citizens off the street,

The National Guard were not "occupying" D.C. A military occupation is generally a military controlling a foreign territory by force. The American city in this case was being occupied by protesters, many of which were not residents of D.C., not by a standing army which was lawfully protecting the jurisdiction at the behest of the city's commander in chief.

stifle free expression and assembly, using paramilitary forces to smoke clergy out of their churches at the head of state’s whim, is pretty much the founders’ nightmare.

Free expression and assembly were not "stifled." It was moved a small distance. Non-peaceful, unlawful expression may have been stifled. I haven't heard about people being smoked out of their churches. I did hear about people not being allowed to attend their churches during the pandemic shutdown.

The Founders would have definitely approved of the President ordering his federal troops to quell destructive civil disorder in D.C. The Thugs and ANTIFA in the crowd had been turning the peaceful "occupation" into a violent, dangerous, life threatening, destructive one. The Founder's nightmare would have been a President who allowed the Capitol to be desecrated by thugs and criminals.

As for clearing a path for the President, the people had the right to hear him. The right to protest does not give the right to stifle the free speech of others, nor the right to deny others the right to hear their President.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

What you said is not what happened:

"A head of state using a standing army"

There was no standing army being used against the will of a state governor. Washington D.C. is not a state. The President as commander-in-chief of the District of Columbia's national guard has the legal, constitutional power to use it in that city. The original notion of the Founders, that the central government did not have the authority to impose the power of a standing federal army on the states and the free citizens therein, never applied to D.C.

to occupy an American city, compel citizens off the street,

The National Guard were not "occupying" D.C. A military occupation is generally a military controlling a foreign territory by force. The American city in this case was being occupied by protesters, many of which were not residents of D.C., not by a standing army which was lawfully protecting the jurisdiction at the behest of the city's commander in chief.

stifle free expression and assembly, using paramilitary forces to smoke clergy out of their churches at the head of state’s whim, is pretty much the founders’ nightmare.

Free expression and assembly were not "stifled." It was moved a small distance. Non-peaceful, unlawful expression may have been stifled. I haven't heard about people being smoked out of their churches. I did hear about people not being allowed to attend their churches during the pandemic shutdown.

The Founders would have definitely approved of the President ordering his federal troops to quell destructive civil disorder in D.C. The Thugs and ANTIFA in the crowd had been turning the peaceful "occupation" into a violent, dangerous, life threatening, destructive one. The Founder's nightmare would have been a President who allowed the Capitol to be desecrated by thugs and criminals.

As for clearing a path for the President, the people had the right to hear him. The right to protest does not give the right to stifle the free speech of others, nor the right to deny others the right to hear their President.

Weasel words, but Tweety doesn't care about the rule of law anyways.

Citizens have the right to enter one state and leave another, the right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than a hostile stranger.

Citizens of the United States have a constitutional right to assemble and the right to speak.

You have not listened or looked to see what happened, willful ignorance once again. As is typical of authoritarians, you ignore the greater good and focus on the lesser evil.
They physically drove the rector from the church courtyard.
There was no violence until it was escalated by government forces.
They drove all the people out and he said no words.

It was a photo op, pure and simple

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Weasel words, but Tweety doesn't care about the rule of law anyways.

Yes he does. (that was easy)

Citizens have the right to enter one state and leave another, the right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than a hostile stranger.

Sure, but they don't have the right to do or go wherever they want.

Citizens of the United States have a constitutional right to assemble and the right to speak.

They were not stopped from doing so. Citizens do not have the right to occupy whatever space they want.

You have not listened or looked to see what happened, willful ignorance once again. As is typical of authoritarians, you ignore the greater good and focus on the lesser evil.

I assume that you and I have a different view of what the greater good is. Being an authoritarian, you believe your view is the rule. I have stated many times in many ways what I think what the greater good is in government. It would be a useless expenditure of energy to tell you again. You have not listened. You ignore. And I don't recall you ever saying precisely what that greater good is.

They physically drove the rector from the church courtyard.
There was no violence until it was escalated by government forces.
They drove all the people out and he said no words.

As wdmso might say, that was simplistic.

It was a photo op, pure and simple

Among other things, it was a photo op. It's what politicians do. But there was a definite message or two in the op. A message partially in response to the lie that he was "hiding like a coward in the bunker." The President doesn't make those decisions. The secret services does. And I'm guessing that, for security reasons, the secret service was not approving of the op.

And "the world" was divided about the message. Unlike the fake anti-Trump media, there was a large world that approved of his message. And you probably scoff at that. I'm guessing, it makes you feel good about yourself to do that.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Among other things, it was a photo op. It's what politicians do. But there was a definite message or two in the op. A message partially in response to the lie that he was "hiding like a coward in the bunker." The President doesn't make those decisions. The secret services does. And I'm guessing that, for security reasons, the secret service was not approving of the op.

And "the world" was divided about the message. Unlike the fake anti-Trump media, there was a large world that approved of his message. And you probably scoff at that. I'm guessing, it makes you feel good about yourself to do that.

In the German part of the "world" Tweety is viewed as the greatest threat to world peace with a percentage greater than Kim Jong Un, Ali Kahmenei, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jingpin combined, so apparently they disagree with you and the other 30% of Americans that support Tweety.

His self image is so bad and he is such a wimp, that in order to assuage his ego he had to have troops drive Americans out of Lafayette Square.
What a poor excuse for a leader.

First, the president started the fire. He kept adding fuel.

Now, he wants credit for attempting to put it out.

Meanwhile the house is burning.

And don't forget that in this day of the iphone, the amount of police brutality at the anti-police brutality protests is not helping the image. That is not all the officers, but as a percentage it is higher than the number of criminals among the protesters.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

In the German part of the "world" Tweety is viewed as the greatest threat to world peace with a percentage greater than Kim Jong Un, Ali Kahmenei, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jingpin combined, so apparently they disagree with you and the other 30% of Americans that support Tweety.

Far be it from me to tell the Germans how to think. "The World" thinks Germans are authoritarian. But I also have read that there is a lot of dissent in Germany about their Progressive globalist authoritarians, especially their immigration policies. It's not a solid block of opinion in Germany. The Bavarians and others have pushed back against Merkel's policies. There seems to be a lot of sentiment in various parts of Germany for maintaining their cultural heritage which they feel is being eradicated by EU centric globalism.


His self image is so bad and he is such a wimp, that in order to assuage his ego he had to have troops drive Americans out of Lafayette Square.

He appears to have a very elevated self image.

What a poor excuse for a leader.

Good Lord!! He led the Repubs from a certain, crushing defeat, and permanent irrelevance to becoming the dominat power in the federal government as well as many states. You say a lot of stupid, self-serving, bitter, whiny stuff.

First, the president started the fire. He kept adding fuel.

Disagree.

Now, he wants credit for attempting to put it out.

Hope he and the rest of Congress and the states get together and put it out.

Meanwhile the house is burning.

It burns a lot. Rises from the ashes. USA, USA, USA!!

And don't forget that in this day of the iphone, the amount of police brutality at the anti-police brutality protests is not helping the image. That is not all the officers, but as a percentage it is higher than the number of criminals among the protesters.

OK, I won't forget . . . not.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

the amount of police brutality at the anti-police brutality protests is not helping the image. That is not all the officers, but as a percentage it is higher than the number of criminals among the protesters.

oh...please try to quantify this gem