is it impeachable to ask ukraine to investigate political adversaries?

[Pete F.]

Can you tell me whether soliciting or accepting foreign election assistance is illegal?
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Can you tell me whether soliciting or accepting foreign election assistance is illegal?
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you mean when Hillary did it and paid for it? or when Bill was shaking down the Communist Chinese?....or all the questionable money that flowed into Obamas campaign from overseas?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Can you tell me whether soliciting or accepting foreign election assistance is illegal?
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i honestly don’t know. but since i presume you’re saying it was illegal, why wasn’t it illegal when obama asked russia to postpone missile policy until after his re election, and he pushed them to do so by saying once his last election was behind him, he’d “have more flexibility “ to work with them. that’s a quid quo pro - do what i ask, and then i’ll help you in ways i wouldn’t be able to do, if i had to worry about getting elected again.

Make that wrong. You can’t.
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[Got Stripers]

Whataboutism at its finest. Let’s look at the past a different way, maybe regardless of you two trying to make it the same, it really isn’t and for the sake of argument let’s say it’s close; I guess your party was asleep at the wheel and the evil dems aren’t.
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

i honestly don’t know. but since i presume you’re saying it was illegal, why wasn’t it illegal when obama asked russia to postpone missile policy until after his re election, and he pushed them to do so by saying once his last election was behind him, he’d “have more flexibility “ to work with them. that’s a quid quo pro - do what i ask, and then i’ll help you in ways i wouldn’t be able to do, if i had to worry about getting elected again.

Make that wrong. You can’t.
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Saying I don't want to negotiate that now is not the same as saying: We have a good relationship, not equal and you want more missiles (I know the survival of your country depends on them, and both of us know I'm holding them hostage) but do me a favor and investigate my political opponent.

That's the ask and the get. Then they hid it in a different server so others in the government could not see it. What else they buried, will be the next thing to come out.

I don't have to make what Trump did wrong, it is and it is a violation of his oath of office. He is exactly who I have said he is all along.

Putin's Puppet

[Sea Dangles]

Trump 2020
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Whataboutism at its finest. Let’s look at the past a different way, maybe regardless of you two trying to make it the same, it really isn’t and for the sake of argument let’s say it’s close; I guess your party was asleep at the wheel and the evil dems aren’t.
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Whataboutism...so there's no valid argument to be mad in pointing to examples of obama and senate democrats doing what you want to impeach trump for?

As detbuch said, youve never heard of the concept of precedent?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Saying I don't want to negotiate that now is not the same as saying: We have a good relationship, not equal and you want more missiles (I know the survival of your country depends on them, and both of us know I'm holding them hostage) but do me a favor and investigate my political opponent.

That's the ask and the get. Then they hid it in a different server so others in the government could not see it. What else they buried, will be the next thing to come out.

I don't have to make what Trump did wrong, it is and it is a violation of his oath of office. He is exactly who I have said he is all along.

Putin's Puppet

"Saying I don't want to negotiate that now"

Funny how you left out the part where Obama said he'd have "more flexibility" to work with them on missile policy, after his re election. He told them that if they waited, he could do more for them.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Whataboutism

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how do you get the tough ones right?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Can you tell me whether soliciting or accepting foreign election assistance is illegal?

He didn't solicit election assistance. He sought help in determining if there was illegal activity between Ukraine and various Americans. If that investigation ultimately provides collateral damage to election possibilities for Dems, too bad. ANY agreement with a foreign power that eventually makes it better for America would provide "assistance," if you must frame it that way, for Trump's re-election.

There's nothing in the released phone transcript that directly asks for election assistance. Spinning it as if it somehow amounted to election assistance is evidence of nothing more than duplicity on the part of the spinner.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Saying I don't want to negotiate that now"

Funny how you left out the part where Obama said he'd have "more flexibility" to work with them on missile policy, after his re election. He told them that if they waited, he could do more for them.

And when someone asks me to negotiate a price for a project and I am in the middle of another one, I say I need to wait until I am done, then we can sit down and figure something out. I have not asked for anything or received anything and have made no commitment to anything. I am not foolish enough to not put the required amount of attention into it and yes, I too would say I can do a better job later when it suits my interests and I need or want to delay.

Donald Trump thinks L’etat, c’est moi and this is obvious in almost all his speech. He is not King, Prince or anything other than the chief administrative officer of a republic. He can and should pursue corruption as other presidents have, but not for his personal gain.

He did, and the rest of the story is not out yet.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

He didn't solicit election assistance. He sought help in determining if there was illegal activity between Ukraine and various Americans. If that investigation ultimately provides collateral damage to election possibilities for Dems, too bad. ANY agreement with a foreign power that eventually makes it better for America would provide "assistance," if you must frame it that way, for Trump's re-election.

There's nothing in the released phone transcript that directly asks for election assistance. Spinning it as if it somehow amounted to election assistance is evidence of nothing more than duplicity on the part of the spinner.

Dream on
If this was a corruption case and the Citrus Caligula was the Mayor of a city, he would be indicted for corruption. He has the permit Zelensky needs and asked for, he is holding it for a favor that benefits him, that is the get. Many Dons have gone to prison for less.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

He can and should pursue corruption as other presidents have, but not for his personal gain.

He did, and the rest of the story is not out yet.

You don't want to recognize the conundrum that "personal gain" is not avoidable when pursuing that which is good.

But you do seem to think that you can tell us the story before the rest of it is out.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

You don't want to recognize the conundrum that "personal gain" is not avoidable when pursuing that which is good.

But you do seem to think that you can tell us the story before the rest of it is out.

If it was acceptable why would you go to unusual measures to hide it?

What else is hidden from the rest of the government to protect the would be King?

[Pete F.]

What will happen when people realize Ukraine was part of a multinational pre-election "grand bargain" that required Ukraine to approve Russian sanctions relief to get a massive new Middle East contract for Turboatom. You should wonder why Trump sent Rick Perry to Zelensky's inauguration?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

If it was acceptable why would you go to unusual measures to hide it?

In this unusual political environment of constant leaks and misrepresentations, it would be wise to protect personal conversations with foreign leaders. Why would foreign leaders want to have personal conversations with their counterparts if they could not be confidential?

What else is hidden from the rest of the government to protect the would be King?

Your constant name-calling and distortion (lying?) is but a small sample in the larger world of rabid opposition "journalism" and treacherous political opponents who choose to pursue destruction and power rather than cooperation in solving current problems.

And this hyper attempt to destroy Trump is not without a deeper reason than just mere politics.

There is a lot of "hiding" going on in order to deflect from who, and why, began the phony notion that Trump colluded with Russia. And expanding the cover-up by constantly turning up whatever phony little stone that Trump is supposedly guilty of in order to keep the deception going until the next election where he can be deposed, and the threat of exposing those who created collusion narratives can then still be hidden, perhaps forever.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Your constant name-calling and distortion (lying?) is but a small sample in the larger world of rabid opposition "journalism" and treacherous political opponents who choose to pursue destruction and power rather than cooperation in solving current problems.

Are you talking about this guy?

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Liddle’ Adam Schiff, Sleepy Creepy Joe, Crazy Bernie, Pocahantas, Alfred E. Neuman, Lying Ted, Little Rocket Man, Little Marco, Low Energy Jeb, Cryin’ Chuck and more.


And this hyper attempt to destroy Trump is not without a deeper reason than just mere politics.

You should worry more about Trump's consigliere Colludy and his shadow State Department than me, he's on a one man mission with lots of media coverage to take down Trump and his entire cabinet.

There is a lot of "hiding" going on in order to deflect from who, and why, began the phony notion that Trump colluded with Russia.

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6432520-The-NRA-Russia-How-a-Tax-Exempt-Organization

And expanding the cover-up by constantly turning up whatever phony little stone that Trump is supposedly guilty of in order to keep the deception going until the next election where he can be deposed, and the threat of exposing those who created collusion narratives can then still be hidden, perhaps forever.

Keep defending the Liar in Chief, he claims that we fund Ukraine and Europe does not? Just another in the long list of lies.

“The top donors for Ukraine in 2016-2017 are: European Institutions ($425.2 million), US ($204.4), Germany ($189.8), Japan ($180.8), Poland ($42.5), Sweden ($34.6), UK ($31.6) and Switzerland ($29.6).”

Remember the whistle-blower crisis is following the same track as the slow-roll on acknowledging Trump knew about the Stormy Daniels payments and reimbursed Cohen - first a denial, then an admission of part, then an admission of other parts while saying there was nothing wrong with it. Before you know it he will agree with you that it is SOP for politicians, if he hasn't already.

[Pete F.]

White House said today that lawyers directed moving documents to highly secure system.

Trump has a history of using his lawyers to commit crimes for him—on the incorrect presumption they can't testify against him. He did it again here: shaking down a foreign power using his lawyer as a criminal instrument.

This Ukraine incident, and it consists of more than just his phone call, would be described—were it anyone but this president—as a crime spree: extortion, bribery, witness tampering, conspiracy, illegal solicitation of foreign campaign donations, obstruction of justice, Logan Act crimes and more. It's a historic scandal.

But the part that's truly crazy, and I know astonishes criminal lawyers the nation over, is that all of the principals have either confessed to the crimes, confessed to intent to commit the crimes, or accused other people of the same conduct and called the conduct criminal.

If you think Clinton committed a crime by hiring a law firm that hired a nonpartisan research firm that hired an independent contractor to conduct routine opposition research, you also think presidents can't extort foreign leaders for personal gain. Not f*cking rocket science.

[spence]

Soon Trump is going to be claiming he couldn't have violated the Constitution because he's never read it

[Pete F.]

On May 13th Russian state TV reported that no US officials would be attending the inauguration in Ukraine, on direct orders from Trump. According to the whistle-blower, on May 14th Trump ordered Pence not to attend.

How did the Russians know that?

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Whataboutism...so there's no valid argument to be mad in pointing to examples of obama and senate democrats doing what you want to impeach trump for?

As detbuch said, youve never heard of the concept of precedent?

I don't see them as anyway close to the same and trying to debate that point is a circular discussion, so I'm not going to attempt it. As for Detbuch's claim a previous precedent makes this a nothing burger I find that to be so hypocritical, when FOREVER he falls back on the constitution and the intent of the founding fathers. Well I'm pretty sure they would see this as an impeachable offense, as they specifically wrote it to prevent a foreign power from interfering in our democratic process and elections and to seek political advantage or personal gains was against the rules. I know you three or four can spin this until you fingers hurt, but even if they don't get the votes in the senate and I"m not so sure some Republicans not in a strong position moving forward might not flip; this will not help Trump moving forward.

I maintain, this is the most corrupt president and administration of our life time, I think history will see it that way and if you don't; it's ok because I know in your minds the means justify the end. Trump island isn't a place I want to live and his complete disregard for the environment for another four years would do serious harm long term. I suspect our allies and foes are not to happy with where the leading nation of the free world is and I have no doubt they know the blame lies at the top of this corrupt food chain.

But hey keep circling the wagons, get those MAGA hats washed and ready, buckle up it's going to be a bumpy ride into 2020.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I don't see them as anyway close to the same and trying to debate that point is a circular discussion, so I'm not going to attempt it. As for Detbuch's claim a previous precedent makes this a nothing burger I find that to be so hypocritical, when FOREVER he falls back on the constitution and the intent of the founding fathers. Well I'm pretty sure they would see this as an impeachable offense, as they specifically wrote it to prevent a foreign power from interfering in our democratic process and elections and to seek political advantage or personal gains was against the rules. I know you three or four can spin this until you fingers hurt, but even if they don't get the votes in the senate and I"m not so sure some Republicans not in a strong position moving forward might not flip; this will not help Trump moving forward.

I maintain, this is the most corrupt president and administration of our life time, I think history will see it that way and if you don't; it's ok because I know in your minds the means justify the end. Trump island isn't a place I want to live and his complete disregard for the environment for another four years would do serious harm long term. I suspect our allies and foes are not to happy with where the leading nation of the free world is and I have no doubt they know the blame lies at the top of this corrupt food chain.

But hey keep circling the wagons, get those MAGA hats washed and ready, buckle up it's going to be a bumpy ride into 2020.

^^^^^^ This

PENCE 2020!

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

As for Detbuch's claim a previous precedent makes this a nothing burger I find that to be so hypocritical,

I find that what you say destroys any credibility in any of your comments here. I did not say that precedent "makes this a nothingburger". Putting words in my mouth in order to debunk what I said is a form of lying that debunks whatever you say. Precedent is meaningful, calling something "whataboutism" is meaningless. It is a copout from acknowledging any importance in a statement you would rather not discuss.

when FOREVER he falls back on the constitution and the intent of the founding fathers. Well I'm pretty sure they would see this as an impeachable offense, as they specifically wrote it to prevent a foreign power from interfering in our democratic process and elections and to seek political advantage or personal gains was against the rules.

If you're so "pretty sure" then point out in the Constitution how asking for assistance from a foreign power which has information that could clarify whether or not Americans had done something criminal or unconstitutional.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you're so "pretty sure" then point out in the Constitution how asking for assistance from a foreign power which has information that could clarify whether or not Americans had done something criminal or unconstitutional.

Boy are you naive if you think that's what Trump was doing, but hey I get it, the right needs to spin this now and it's going to be very hard to do. Let's even assume for a minute those where Trump's noble intentions, which based on history of behavior is a stretch on it's own, what about holding up tax payer paid for, bipartisan military funds until the leader of a foreign government agree's to give him a favor? You keep spinning baby, you guys are good at it, I"m going to enjoy the show.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you're so "pretty sure" then point out in the Constitution how asking for assistance from a foreign power which has information that could clarify whether or not Americans had done something criminal or unconstitutional.

Yea, asking to investigate something where there's no evidence of wrongdoing, subject just happens to be the leading political opponent and you're only interested in corruption that benefits you personally.

Right.

[Pete F.]

"Total panic as the reality of the jeopardy for President Trump begins to set in... The panic within the White House comes as we learn new details about the impeachment inquiry on Capitol Hill. Democrats signaling they're poised to move fast" Nicole Wallace



Rudy Giuliani is now saying he knew Joe Biden and associates would kill him for investigating Ukrainian situation.

Tulsi Gabbard is now the first Republican sitting member of Congress to support Impeachment.

Secretary of State POMPEO has been subpoenaed by House committees to produce Ukraine documents.

And the committees have set a schedule of 5 depositions:

October 2: Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch
October 3: Ambassador Kurt Volker
October 7: Deputy Assistant Secretary George Kent
October 8: Counselor T. Ulrich Brechbuhl
October 10: Ambassador Gordon Sondland


Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it.
5:03 PM · May 3, 2016

[spence]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Tulsi Gabbard is now the first Republican sitting member of Congress to support Impeachment.

Um wha?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Boy are you naive if you think that's what Trump was doing, but hey I get it, the right needs to spin this now and it's going to be very hard to do. Let's even assume for a minute those where Trump's noble intentions, which based on history of behavior is a stretch on it's own, what about holding up tax payer paid for, bipartisan military funds until the leader of a foreign government agree's to give him a favor? You keep spinning baby, you guys are good at it, I"m going to enjoy the show.

So you don't know what you're talking about re the Constitution and the phone call.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you're so "pretty sure" then point out in the Constitution how asking for assistance from a foreign power which has information that could clarify whether or not Americans had done something criminal or unconstitutional.

Start with the Constitution for Dummies version of Art. II Section 4

The President, the Vice President, and other officers of the United States, can be kicked out of office (impeached) if they are found guilty of double-crossing (betraying) the country, offering people money or getting money to do something dishonest, or other really big crimes.

But if your reading comprehension level is higher than that you could move on to this explanation of how Trump’s conduct vis-à-vis Ukraine does rise to the level of a high crime or misdemeanor under Art. II, § 4 of the Constitution written by Neal Katyal and George Conway and excerpted from WAPO

“The ... phrase ... ‘high Crimes and Misdemeanors’ ... was a historical term of art, derived from impeachments in the British Parliament. ... The framers ... knew what it meant. It meant, as Alexander Hamilton later phrased it, ‘the abuse or violation of some public trust.’”

“The framers viewed the president as a fiduciary, the government of the United States as a sacred trust and the people of the United States as the beneficiaries of that trust.”

”They believed that a president would break his oath if he engaged in self-dealing — if he used his powers to put his own interests above the nation’s. That would be the paradigmatic case for impeachment.”

“That’s exactly what appears to be at issue today. ... It appears that the president might have used his official powers ... to leverage a foreign government into helping him defeat a potential political opponent in the United States.”

“If Trump did that, it would be the ultimate impeachable act. Trump has already done more than enough to warrant impeachment ... with his relentless attempts ... to sabotage the Mueller investigation ....”

“The president’s efforts were impeachable because, in committing those obstructive acts, he put his personal interests above the nation’s: He tried to stop an investigation into whether a hostile foreign power, Russia, ....”

“... tried to interfere with our democracy — ... because he found it personally embarrassing. Trump breached his duties... not only because he likely broke the law but also because, through his disregard for the law, he put his self-interest first.”

“The current whistle=blowing allegations ... are even worse. Unlike the allegations of conspiracy with Russia in 2016 ..., these concern Trump’s actions as president ... and his exercise of presidential powers over foreign policy ....”

“It is high time for Congress to do its duty .... Given how Trump seems ... bent on putting himself above the law, something like what might have happened with Ukraine — abusing presidential authority for personal benefit — was almost inevitable.”

“Yet if that is what occurred, part of the responsibility lies with Congress, which has failed to act on the blatant obstruction ... detailed months ago.

“Congressional procrastination has probably emboldened Trump, ....”

“... and it risks emboldening future presidents who might turn out to be of his sorry ilk. To borrow John Dean’s ... metaphor once again, there is a cancer on the presidency, and cancers, if not removed, only grow.”

”Congress bears the duty to use the tools provided by the Constitution to remove that cancer now, before it’s too late.”

“As Elbridge Gerry put it at the 1787 Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, ‘A good magistrate will not fear impeachments. A bad one ought to be kept in fear of them.’ By now, Congress should know which one Trump is.”

or this:
https://fedsoc.org/commentary/public...h-misdemeanors

or this:
https://t.co/jh8leocLkk?amp=1

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by spence

Um wha?

"The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

"Leave him alone, he's on a roll."
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