What's Cookin' ?

[Mojo7]

Originally Posted by chefchris401

Plugs look great Mark!
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Thanks Chris

[Jackbass]

Nice looking stuff guys
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[ProfessorM]

Look good Mark

[pbadad]

Decided to turn some of the pine I had. dug up the specs on a Conrad Jr. found both PM's specs & canalman's Fisherman article. both the same length 5 1/2" but different in diameter, weight amount and hook amount. Has anyone swam both versions? I seems that with the smaller diameter 1.125 and less weight (8gr) would still swim deep as the original larger diameter 1.165 and the longer weight slug (approx. 10gr/12gr). I spun the smaller one (1 hook) and will swim along with one larger w/2 hooks. I have a couple of PM's lips to test with.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by pbadad

I seems that with the smaller diameter 1.125 and less weight (8gr) would still swim deep as the original larger diameter 1.165 and the longer weight slug (approx. 10gr/12gr). I spun the smaller one (1 hook) and will swim along with one larger w/2 hooks. I have a couple of PM's lips to test with.

It is the lip and line tie position that takes a conrad down, not the weight. No matter what size plug or wood, just weight the thing so it floats level with the top of the back barely out of the water. Keep your line tie close to midline (not on midline though or the plug will struggle to wobble) and a long vertical face to your lip (ie the distance from the line tie to the start of the diving plane ) and it will run deep. Also keep the slope of the diving plane pretty sharp (close to 45 degrees).

Turns out a high slot lefty lip will take a plug just as deep as a conrad lip if you rebend it a bit (lefty lips come with a very shallow diving plane angle).

[ProfessorM]

Ross for me personally I prefer to do it by hand. Now if i was making 100's of darters I'd come up with something else. I do make fixtures for the front lip angle as I feel that is a very important step and that fixture makes use of a belly hole positioned plug fixture. The slope I just bandsaw, with another belly hole positioned fixture. The slope is cut about a 1/16 to an 1/8 from the finished dimension freehand and then I take a sheet of sand paper on a flat surface and do the final sanding by hand. I don't like using a belt sander myself. There is not a lot of material coming off and I feel like I can control the final dimension better by just rubbing the final wood off. I tried the belt sander, and we have a real nice unit at work, but found i made a mess out most of them and usually took too much off. I prefer to sneak up on the final size.

[chefchris401]

George on the mini mussos what lip are you/he using?

I'm actually on my way to test swim the one I built, I used a Danny 2 lip (I think) and it carries a big belly weight, they weigh 2.7oz with hardware and a quick coat of paint, without epoxy.
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[numbskull]

duplicate post

[numbskull]

Chris, sounds like you are describing a standard jr sized Musso surface swimmer. It uses a Lefty 2 midslot (which should be called Musso 2 since Lefty just took it from Musso).

Musso didn't build one like I have shown. He did build a small swimmer for personal use that he never sold. I've since learned it was a fatter plug and used a full sized lip. I think there is a picture of it in the Pinaturo articles. It only had one belly hook.

These plugs were originally something I dreamed up and described in this thread a few years back http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripert...structive.html. The dimensions are in there somewhere. I know Fred (eskimo) built a variation that worked for him. Somebody else actually copied them and was selling them over on the saltwater edge forum a year or two ago.

You can use a lefty 1 midslot for surface use, but they also work very well with a lefty 1 high slot lip and swim as deep as a little conrad set up that way. The ones I built used a small belly weight and tiny tail weight. I like 'em better than the small danny surface swimmer although that plug fishes pretty well itself

[numbskull]

Here are two nice fish (and one great fisherman) taken on the little plug

[chefchris401]

George heres the one Im building, just got back from test swimming it with 3 different lips.

This version is 5.75" long, weighs 2.75 oz rigged the way it is now, carries cut 2/0 hooks and a flag on the rear (3/0 will work too without marrying)

Belly weight is 11 grams and is 2 5/8" back from the nose. Sits just in the body enough to be able to cover it.

Sits low in the water, with just the top 1/4 of the plug exposed.

I tried it with a danny 2 lip first, stayed right on top, maybe 2" down, great tail wag but anything except a slow crawl made it roll out.

Next was a lefty 2 lip, better holding but still rolled out, but not as much.

Best results where with a pikie 3 lip, slow crawl stayed on top, with 2/3 of the body rolling nicely, flag waving and making a nice v wake, on a faster steadier retrieve it went 2 ft down, no matter how hard I tried or fast I cranked it wouldn't roll out.

So Ill be building em with the pikie 3 lip seeing it gives me a more versatile plug for the surf and the conditions I fish. If they were for flat calm water I'd go with the lefty 2, but I barely fish those conditions.

My testing spot is nice it has a little calm back bay on one side and current flow bay side that is usually pretty choppy on the other, so I get most the conditions Ill actually be fishing in.

Think this plug will fit nicely into my rotations and the spots I fish.

[numbskull]

Sounds like you've got something that does what you want, so go with it but for future reference a few thoughts.

A standard surface swimmer is weighted to float level with the water line @ 1/2 way up the plug. I purposely build them heavier to get them working slower, but there is a tradeoff in that they tend to get subsurface easier than I'd want.

A standard lip size would have the angle at or a slight amount below the chin of the plug. The further you drop it the more roll (and depth) you get.

The standard lip for a surface swimmer is a mid-slot lip. In your picture it looks like you are using a high slot lip (and pikie lips are all high slot). This can be made to work if the plug is very fat and buoyant and you want a lip to pull the nose down and put the tail up with a fast wag (think surfster) but usually high slots are used to take a plug down and make it stable.

Just as an experiment you might try the same shape with a lefty 1 mid slot (or pikie 2 with a lower hole punched in it), and less belly weight. It would also allow you to use 3/0 or 6x 2/0 hooks.

Another thing to watch out for when testing plugs at this time of year is how high above the water your rod tip is. We tend to test from docks and jetties and the higher rod position often keeps a plug running higher than you get when you fish lower so be sure to drop your rod tip during the retrieve and see what occurs.

Whatever, the first big fish you hit with it will make it all worthwhile.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Chris, sounds like you are describing a standard jr sized Musso surface swimmer. It uses a Lefty 2 midslot (which should be called Musso 2 since Lefty just took it from Musso).

Musso didn't build one like I have shown. He did build a small swimmer for personal use that he never sold. I've since learned it was a fatter plug and used a full sized lip. I think there is a picture of it in the Pinaturo articles. It only had one belly hook.

These plugs were originally something I dreamed up and described in this thread a few years back http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripert...structive.html. The dimensions are in there somewhere. I know Fred (eskimo) built a variation that worked for him. Somebody else actually copied them and was selling them over on the saltwater edge forum a year or two ago.

You can use a lefty 1 midslot for surface use, but they also work very well with a lefty 1 high slot lip and swim as deep as a little conrad set up that way. The ones I built used a small belly weight and tiny tail weight. I like 'em better than the small danny surface swimmer although that plug fishes pretty well itself

I think you mean Frank, not Fred. close though
I'm not good with names either


good thread George

I'm sure I'll post something when I have something.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

I think you mean Frank, not Fred. .

Yup, sorry Frank, Fred is too old to remember any of this stuff

[Hookset]

Well, today I turned five small Musso swimmers, 4 7/8" and worked on my template for the "Eddy Needle". I turned 2 of the Eddy needles, but didn't have any Birch (neither did the local stores.) So, I turned them in Maple. Will give me something to horse around with until I cal get some Birch.
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[numbskull]

Not the most productive week. Spent more time drilling and weighting than turning.

Did fool with some variants on needle weighting. Obviously the through wire tail weight and belly weight ahead of the hook scheme is the time proven standard, but all this talk about floating needles and gliding needles got me curious so here are a few things I plan to test. Set them up by rigging the plug then moving weights around held on by rubber bands until the plug floated/sank at the attitude I wanted. Can always fine tune varying by hook size.

There is also a clever way to weight needles posted by PM and Bassmaster (I think) by drilling all the way from the tail to the hook hole with a large bore drill, then positioning a through wire weight somewhere in that distance and holding it in place with plastic tubing as a spacer.

[ProfessorM]

That was Dave who showed me. I do think someone showed him if I recall.
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[rphud]

I have been thinking a minimal belly weight just to keep the needle hook side down and then weight at the back to get the float angle desired. Probably as small a diameter lead as will work within the length from end to hook or belly weight hole. Trying to keep as much weight in the back half for casting, but evenly distributed in the back half. Just a theory so far. Plus the selection of lead diameter is a bit limited. Smallest I am seeing is .22 inch diameter, and I would probably like to go smaller for some I am messing around with. They are only about 1/2" OD. Like a Boone needle, only heavier and thru wired and with much better hooks. Might resort to wound lead strips or wound lead wire if need be.

[nightfighter]

Bob, if you look at George's pics of his and Tagger's, I think you will see more weight forward than you are leaning towards. When I went heavily tail weighted, they floated almost vertically, which did not work for my needle needs, as it is a sloooowwwww retrieve.

[rphud]

Maybe the belly weight forward of the hook then, and shorten the tail weight a bit with the spacer. Time to experiment with water and dome poorly drilled "sticks".

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Bob, if you look at George's pics of his and Tagger's, I think you will see more weight forward than you are leaning towards. When I went heavily tail weighted, they floated almost vertically, which did not work for my needle needs, as it is a sloooowwwww retrieve.

Flap built some "floaters" as he called them that were just tail weighted and floated vertically with the nose just out of the water. They would straighten right out and wake as he retrieved them. They were very small by my standards but I saw him take a #40 fish with one.

I'm curious to see one of Dave's (Surf Asylum) glide needles and see what he is on to there.

Likewise I set one of the ones I showed to float nearly level with the tail slightly down. My idea is to try barely moving it/dead drifting it on nights with awful fire.

[ProfessorM]

I had pretty good luck with a small needle I made a few years ago and like usual never really used it much till last fall. I only belly wgt it with 3 belly wgts. I made it out of maple. I used the .240 dia. lead shot. 1 in front of hook and 2 behind spaced out. It sank really slow and horizontal. I fished it really slow in a good current and I enjoyed it a lot. I am going to make some more this winter and intend to really give it a good work out this coming year.

Bob I can help you out with a smaller dia. tail wgt. around .187 but it has a .050 dia h thru hole so you will have to use a small thru wire. domn't know if that is something you want to use.

Here is what George was talking about as far as using plastic to adjust the tail wgts.

[ProfessorM]

I am also going to give this longer skinny needle, 2nd from bottom, a better work out this year too. I like the skinnyness of this where i fish with all the sandeels in residence. This was a bitch to make with the tru drilling on the small dia. and it being maple. It was patterned off a shorter Stezko senior one I borrowed from Capesams which I copied to exact dimensions, the bottom one. From there I stretched it out and kept it skinny with same retaliative shape which appealed to me.
Funny how each year I go into this plug building thing with the intent of fishing a specific type lure more in the up coming year. This year it is needles.

[rphud]

Thanks Paul. I have some skinny wire that I got from Slip to use on these. Should fit the smaller hole OK. Bob

[chefchris401]

Bob if you need thinner wire I have rolls of Malin wire in varies sizes.

Anderson's flat glide is amazing, when fish wouldn't hit anything they would crush the flat glide.

I have one that's beat up and and plan on seeing if I can make a clone of it. And a bigger version that sinks the same way but faster.
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[Hookset]

Probably look a little fatter in the pic than they are. They are widest at the hook at 1.17. I am also going to make some around 6".
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[the greek]

Got out today and tested a few things I was thinking about for my challenge swap plugs. These were what I brought with me.





The top two are plugs I have made before with a slight tweak in body shape. I just wanted to see what happened if I swapped weight and hook holes. I liked it with the weight forward of the hook but the other way makes it hunt more and would probably make a good darter. I may make a few of both.



Next one I had to bend down the line tie and switched the back treble out from a 3/0 to a 2/0 but swam OK on top and would go deeper on a faster retrieve. Still need to mess with this one a bit more.



The next one is the Nike'ish looking one. I was surprised at this one. It had an extremely tight wiggle but was very hard to start. Almost had to snap it to get it under and even then would only get going once the entire plug was subsurface. May try adding a slightly larger metal lip on top of the lower face. Back to the drawing board for this one.



And finally the bottom one. Very happy with this one. I didn't have high hopes for this but liked it a lot.




I copied an Arcadia Reef popper. I tried some detail carving for the first time. Lots to learn there. Overall I was very pleased the way it came out. Sits with about half the mouth out of the water. Just need to figure out how I want to paint it.

[BigFish]

Ted did you try turning the line tie on those big eyed lipless swimmers on the horizontal instead of vertical? Might be able to better adjust the swim depth that way on those? Just a thought! I made the same type of ;ipless and had more options with adjustment that way! They all look great by the way! Love your work!

[the greek]

I have not with this type of plug. I have done it with some other stuff like some hand carved stuff and you do get a lot more "tunability". I will give that a try on these before I make any more changes.

[numbskull]

Awesome, inventive, and unique.

I'm confused though. The last swimmer you show in your hand looks like a Nike (or even more like a FW plug called the bearcat) to me. Is that the one you liked or the one that wouldn't swim for you?