Hypocrisy at its finest

[PaulS]

On Friday, a devastating swarm of tornadoes swept through Kentucky. The state’s leading figures appealed for federal aid, which was promptly granted — and rightly so. Helping people and communities in need is what nations are supposed to do.
Observers couldn’t help noticing, however, that some of the Kentucky politicians asking for aid — notably Senator Rand Paul — had in the past not only opposed aid for other disaster-struck states but sneered at their pleas. What should we make of this hypocrisy?
The truth is that it runs deeper than “aid for me but not for thee.” Remarkably, if you look at how the federal budget affects U.S. regions, there’s a consistent pattern in which conservative states that preach the importance of self-reliance are in fact heavily subsidized by liberal states, especially in the Northeast.
The Rockefeller Institute publishes regular estimates of states’ “federal balance of payments” — the difference between the amount the feds spend in a state and the amount they collect in taxes. In Virginia and Maryland a lot of federal spending consists of the salaries of government workers. Elsewhere, however, it’s mainly Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, plus some military spending. Here’s what the map of per capita balances of payments looked like in 2019:

Topping the list of net beneficiaries was, yes, Kentucky, where residents received an average of $14,000 more from Washington than they paid in taxes. To put this in perspective, Kentucky’s 2019 net inflow of federal funds — $63 billion — was roughly 30 percent of the state’s G.D.P. that year.
Economic geographers often interpret regional economies using the “base-multiplier model.” The idea is that what drives a local economy is its “export base,” the stuff it sells to other places; the income generated by that export sector in turn supports jobs in local services, from health care to restaurants. The economy of New York City, for example, is largely driven by the financial industry; the money earned there directly or indirectly supports most of the city’s other jobs.
So what is Kentucky’s export base? Not the traditional industries: In 2019, the state, which has more than four million residents, had fewer than 6,000 coal miners, while the distilling industry — which, to be fair, has been growing — employed only about 5,000 people. On the other hand, more than 250,000 Kentuckians worked in health care and social assistance — and who do you think paid for a lot of that? So, in a real sense, Kentucky’s economy lives on federal dollars.
And that’s OK! The main reason Kentucky is such a large net recipient of federal funds is that the state is relatively poor — it’s in a region that has to some extent been economically stranded as production and wealth concentrate in large, highly educated metropolitan areas. As a lower-income state, Kentucky receives the full benefit of federal programs like Medicare, but pays relatively little in income or payroll taxes, so it gets much more than it pays in. And that is actually how the social safety net is supposed to work. We want individuals who for whatever reason are hurting financially to receive support from the more fortunate, which necessarily implies large transfers from rich states like New Jersey to lower-income states like Kentucky.
What’s not OK is when states that are huge net beneficiaries of progressive taxation and the social safety net preen and posture about self-reliance and the evils of big government. It’s even worse when they assert some kind of moral superiority over the metropolitan areas that pay their bills.
I mean, it’s amazing that we’re still doing the thing where small towns and rural areas are held up as the “real America,” where politicians from, say, Montana are still lecturing urbanites that they need to get out of the big cities. Yes, it would probably be a good thing if more New Yorkers had a sense of what life is like in Montana. But how many Montanans have a good sense of what life is like in Queens — which happens to have twice Montana’s population?
Not that Queens is the real America — or at least no more than anywhere else in this nation. We should see ourselves as one nation. And it would be nice if people in places like Kentucky both accepted that and acknowledged how much they benefit from being part of a greater whole.

[Jim in CT]

Paul, please provide details of McConnell and Paul opposing aid to other states that suffered. Did they simply not care that people
we’re suffering? or was there something else going on?

data shows that conservatives aren’t any less generous or charitable than liberals. we’ve discussed that ten times. i know you don’t like it, but that doesn’t make it false.

and when looking at the amount of federal taxes that go to certain states, you can’t just compare dollars. not every state has massive military basses for example, and states that do, will get federal money that other states don’t get, and there’s nothing “hypocritical” about that. there’s 100 reasons why certain states might get tons of federal money and there’s nothing improper about those funds. there may be some of what you’re describing, but you can’t just look at total dollars spent by state, that’s misleading.

federal funds going to a red state, isn’t necessarily a violation of conservatism. conservatives aren’t opposed to big spending on military, border security, etc. it’s not all welfare to individuals.

showing federal funds that are specifically allocated to things like individual welfare, comparing that by state, would be interesting. need to know why there more money going to certain states.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Paul, please provide details of McConnell and Paul opposing aid to other states that suffered. Did they simply not care that people
we’re suffering? Seems to me that Paul didn't care based on his past commentsor was there something else going on?Look it up. Paul's comments are well known.
Don't know anything about McConnell

data shows that conservatives aren’t any less generous or charitable than liberals. we’ve discussed that ten times. i know you don’t like it, but that doesn’t make it false.Never said it was false. but every time I've told you that it includes charity to their church/private school so my donation to my church really doesn't benefit the community at large the same as a donation to say the American Red Cross.

and when looking at the amount of federal taxes that go to certain states, you can’t just compare dollars. not every state has massive military basses for example, and states that do, will get federal money that other states don’t get, and there’s nothing “hypocritical” about that. there’s 100 reasons why certain states might get tons of federal money and there’s nothing improper about those funds. there may be some of what you’re describing, but you can’t just look at total dollars spent by state, that’s misleading.

federal funds going to a red state, isn’t necessarily a violation of conservatism. conservatives aren’t opposed to big spending on military, border security, etc. it’s not all welfare to individuals.

showing federal funds that are specifically allocated to things like individual welfare, comparing that by state, would be interesting. need to know why there more money going to certain states.
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Bottom line is that the states which receive more $ from the Fed are mostly R leaning and the states that send more to the Fed then they receive are mostly D leaning yet those states which gladly take the $ from the Fed. criticize the govern/taxes and the D donor states.

If a state doesn't want stimulus $, don't take it but it seems hypocritical to complain about it and then gladly take the $.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

If a state doesn't want stimulus $, don't take it but it seems hypocritical to complain about it and then gladly take the $.

like when democrats complain there's too much special interest money in politics and then take huge donations from special interests

[PaulS]

WASHINGTON — At her annual budget address this month, Gov. Kristi Noem, Republican of South Dakota, blamed President Biden’s economic policies for rising prices, derided the “giant handout” of federal stimulus funds and suggested that she had considered refusing the money over ideological objections.

But like many Republican officials, Ms. Noem has found it hard to say no to her state’s share of the $1.9 trillion pandemic relief aid that Democrats passed along party lines in March.

Ms. Noem explained to fellow legislators how critical those federal funds were to South Dakota and outlined how she would use some of the nearly $1 billion slated for her state to invest in local water projects, make housing more affordable and build new day care centers. For those questioning her choice to take the money, Ms. Noem, who has opposed Covid restrictions including shutdowns and mask mandates, said any pandemic-relief funds she rejected would have just gone to other states.

“It would be spent somewhere other than South Dakota,” Ms. Noem said. “The debt would still be incurred by the country, and our people would still suffer the consequences of that spending.” No state has declined the relief money, and if any had it would go back to the Treasury Department, not to other states.

Republican leaders across the country have been engaged in a similarly awkward dance over the past few months as they accept — and often champion — money from the $350 billion bucket of state and local aid included in the stimulus bill, which passed Congress without a single Republican vote. In some states, like Ohio and Arizona, Republican governors are spending the funds while attempting to undercut the law that allowed the money to flow. Other governors are faulting Congress for not giving their state enough money.

And, like their counterparts in Congress, many Republicans have blasted Mr. Biden’s stimulus bill for fueling inflation, even as they take the funds, and criticized Democrats for pushing for additional government spending plans.

“I urge President Biden and Democrats in D.C. to turn off the spigot of out-of-control spending and get inflation under control,” said Gov. Greg Gianforte, Republican of Montana, whose state has used some of its $906 million in stimulus money to invest in nursing homes and return-to-work bonuses.

Gov. Ron DeSantis, Republican of Florida, complained last week that the federal formula for allocating money to states based on their jobless rate had essentially penalized Florida for not imposing lockdowns and allowing businesses to remain open during the pandemic.

“I think you’d have to acknowledge that we got the short end of the stick compared to these other states,” Mr. DeSantis said.


Florida, which was allotted a total of $8.8 billion, has so far received about $3.4 billion, which Mr. DeSantis said would go toward infrastructure, transportation and work force retention. The governor justified keeping the money by arguing that the federal government fueled economic disruption with shutdowns and vaccine and mask mandates that he opposed.

[Jim in CT]

if the feds are going to spend money, as a republican, i wouldn’t feel betrayed by a republican governor who secured some of that money for my state.

Once the federal government had decided to spend the money (which all of us, including Governor Noems constituents, pay for), why would she turn it down. How would that help her constituents?

Paul, every single lefty here bashed Trump’s tax cuts. How many of you threw that money in the toilet on principle? Answer - zero.

it’s an extremely stupid argument.

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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

if the feds are going to spend money, as a republican, i wouldn’t feel betrayed by a republican governor who secured some of that money for my state.

Once the federal government had decided to spend the money (which all of us, including Governor Noems constituents, pay for)althought the D leaning states pay more on a per capita basis. , why would she turn it down. How would that help her constituents? It it helped her constituents she should spend so much time bashing it.

Paul, every single lefty here bashed Trump’s tax cuts. How many of you threw that money in the toilet on principle? Answer - zero.

it’s an extremely stupid argument.

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Trump's taxes cuts caused my taxes to increase. SALT.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Trump's taxes cuts caused my taxes to increase. SALT.

I'm sure the money went to a good cause in Kansas or some other republican state full of poor idiots

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Trump's taxes cuts caused my taxes to increase. SALT.

ok.

would you expect everyone who criticized the tax cuts who got a tax cut, to keep that money, or refuse it?

is any democrats a hypocrite according to you, who kept that money?


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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Trump's taxes cuts caused my taxes to increase. SALT.

the D states pay more because they’re wealthier. I thought democrats were all about the rich paying their fair share. Now you’re complaining that rich states pay more in federal income tax than poor states?
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

the D states pay more because they’re wealthier. I thought democrats were all about the rich paying their fair share. Now you’re complaining that rich states pay more in federal income tax than poor states?
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Where do you see a complaint. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of taking $ from states you call a #^&#^&#^&#^&hole.

Is it any different than a prostitute?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Where do you see a complaint. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of taking $ from states you call a #^&#^&#^&#^&hole.

Is it any different than a prostitute?

how is what you’re pointing out, any different than a democrat who bashed the trump tax cut, but keeping that money. Looks identical to me.

no it’s nothing like going to a prostitute. when the federal government has passed a spending bill, a governor would be a moron to refuse that federal money, even if that governor was opposed to the spending bill. AT THAT POINT, it would be a disservice to the citizens of the state to refuse to take the money.

When i was in a teachers union, I spoke out against the benefits we received because i thought it was unfair to the taxpayers. doesn’t mean i should pay out of my pocket when i went to the doctor.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Trump's taxes cuts caused my taxes to increase. SALT.

you don’t get it.

saying the spending is a bad idea, and taking your share once the spending is approved, isn’t the same thing.

when a massive spending bill is being debated, it’s one thing to oppose it if you think it’s a bad idea. but once it’s approved, that means her residents are going to pay for it. so at that point, there’s no rational reason for her to refuse the money.
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[Pete F.]

Not again

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Not again

Yes Rand "they" are actually giving "their" $ bc higher government spending means higher taxes and the rich, successful states end up paying more in taxes while his poorer, less successful states gets much more from the Fed than they send to the Fed.

[Jim in CT]

Paul and Pete -

Apparently ( if the article is correct), when Paul voted against previous relief bills….he voted for the original
relief, but when congress voted to send additional ( subsequent) relief, he wanted that additional spending to be paid for.

not quite as simple as saying he didn’t want people to get aid.

https://www.bgdailynews.com/news/pau...e1b4b65ca.html
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[wdmso]

Classic conservatism of convenience . the mouth says one thing while the hands do the opposite..

Red state populations are mostly clueless . On who pay their bills and To lazy to even fact check the lies they are feed by their elected officials .

Republican policy

Just make it look like your owing the Libs
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Red state populations are mostly clueless .

On who pay their bills and To lazy to even fact check the lies they are feed by their elected officials .
Just make it look like your owing the Libs


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the gift that keeps on giving.....

[wdmso]

It’s funny conservatives yell and scream communism and socialism any time Dems pass a spending package ( because their voters want to own the libs and also take the money) then as Paul pointed out these loud mouths willingly taking the money they so aggressive lobbied and voted against . That’s only hypocritical to normal people for conservatives that’s business as usual

By definition, there no hypocrisy if he follows the same process each time

See above ^^^^

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[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

It’s funny conservatives yell and scream communism and socialism any time Dems pass a spending package ( because their voters want to own the libs and also take the money) then as Paul pointed out these loud mouths willingly taking the money they so aggressive lobbied and voted against . That’s only hypocritical to normal people for conservatives that’s business as usual

By definition, there no hypocrisy if he follows the same process each time

See above ^^^^

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you do realize that there are democrats in republican states and districts...somebody has to feed them

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

It’s funny conservatives yell and scream communism and socialism any time Dems pass a spending package ( because their voters want to own the libs and also take the money) then as Paul pointed out these loud mouths willingly taking the money they so aggressive lobbied and voted against . That’s only hypocritical to normal people for conservatives that’s business as usual

By definition, there no hypocrisy if he follows the same process each time

See above ^^^^

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i thought the infastructure bull
was a smart win for the democrats
.

i forgot how honest and rational democrats are when republicans pass bills, like saying that the trump tax cut only helped the rich, when the standard deduction was doubled, the child tax credits were greatly expanded, and every single marginal tax rate was decreased.

i must have missed all the democrats who reirted hinestjy about that.
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[Jim in CT]

WDMSO, since you claim to dislike makes hypocrisy, please explain this…

When Biden was a senator and Bush was president, Biden said that a sitting president near the end of his term shouldn’t appoint supreme court justices, and if the president tried, the senate should block him. This became
known as the “ Biden rule.”

Then when Biden was VP, he and Obama attempted to violate the Biden rule by nominating Garland. McConnell enforced the Biden rule, and he was attacked.

Then when Trump was president, he did exactly what Biden and Obama attempted to do by filling a vacancy late in the term. Biden was opposed

So Biden flip-flopped on the issue multiple times. It’s ok when democrats want to make a late term appointment, but wrong when republicans do it.

how is that not naked hypocrisy.
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[scottw]

it's a 1 way street like everything else with them....2024 should be wildly entertaining with trump running his campaign from prison and biden running his campaign from a nursing home...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

it's a 1 way street like everything else with them....2024 should be wildly entertaining with trump running his campaign from prison and biden running his campaign from a nursing home...

I think Michelle Obama would be unstoppable in any presidential
election as long as she’s alive. Don’t ask me why, as i find her impossible to like and she hasn’t done anything, but i can’t imagine ever being at a point where there’s a republican who could beat her. I hope she never runs.

If Michelle doesn’t run, and Trump doesn’t run ( we desperately needed him in 2016, there’s no other human being on the planet who had a chance against Hilary, but we don’t need him in 2024) i like the gops chances.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

WDMSO, since you claim to dislike makes hypocrisy, please explain this…

When Biden was a senator and Bush was president, Biden said that a sitting president near the end of his term shouldn’t appoint supreme court justices, and if the president tried, the senate should block him. This became
known as the “ Biden rule.”

Then when Biden was VP, he and Obama attempted to violate the Biden rule by nominating Garland. McConnell enforced the Biden rule, and he was attacked.

Then when Trump was president, he did exactly what Biden and Obama attempted to do by filling a vacancy late in the term. Biden was opposed

So Biden flip-flopped on the issue multiple times. It’s ok when democrats want to make a late term appointment, but wrong when republicans do it.

how is that not naked hypocrisy.
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The "Biden Rule" is a rhetorical trick McConnell made up to justify his dirty pool on blocking Garland. Then he shamelessly flipped on it once Ginsberg died right before the election.

That's your hypocrisy.

[wdmso]

In Jims world a thief isn’t a hypocritical as long as they stay a thief

And Republicans can’t be called hypocritical because they always say no.. its risk free

That’s why they won’t say No Trump please stop lying Biden won the election

But they will say No to the Jan6th
commission




They did vote No to certify the election against the will of the people

And shockingly the majority of the law and order party voted No to hold Mark Meadows in contempt of Congress! Classic

Republicans putting party before country
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

In Jims world a thief isn’t a hypocritical as long as they stay a thief

And Republicans can’t be called hypocritical because they always say no.. its risk free

That’s why they won’t say No Trump please stop lying Biden won the election

But they will say No to the Jan6th
commission




They did vote No to certify the election against the will of the people

And shockingly the majority of the law and order party voted No to hold Mark Meadows in contempt of Congress! Classic

Republicans putting party before country
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I’ve said 100 times Biden won the election. he’s not likely to win the next one.
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I’ve said 100 times Biden won the election. he’s not likely to win the next one.
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I am not talking about you. These are the people whom I am referring to
82% of Fox News, 97% of OANN, Newsmax Viewers Believe Trump's Stolen Election Claim

I highly doubt Biden will run and if Republicans want a chance they won’t run Trump

And I doubt Harris will get the nomination .. a lot can change next 3 years
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

I am not talking about you. These are the people whom I am referring to
82% of Fox News, 97% of OANN, Newsmax Viewers Believe Trump's Stolen Election Claim



I highly doubt Biden will run(he can't even speak)

And I doubt Harris will get the nomination(she had zero support last time and she's even less popular now)

^^these are bold predictions

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yeah...well...97% msnbc and cnn viewers think biden is a competent president, that's even more screwed up

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

yeah...well...97% msnbc and cnn viewers think biden is a competent president, that's even more screwed up

Love to hear how you define Presidential Competence
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