sh*thole countries

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

It was a fact, not deke.

People mix prejudice and racism all the time. To claim something isn't racism because you didn't explicitly mention the race is a distraction from the root issue...it's a deke.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

People mix prejudice and racism all the time. To claim something isn't racism because you didn't explicitly mention the race is a distraction from the root issue...it's a deke.

Too accuse someone of racism without factual evidence of it is the root method of the type of vague and prejudicial verbiage that you so often practice.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

You read racism into what he said. I suppose that is what makes it vile to you since you agree they came from, metaphorically, sh*thole countries. But he didn't specify or even mention race. You are a devout Catholic. Get back to your scholastic roots.

"You didn't qualify the word "empathy". So now you restrict it to not everyone we happen to feel sorry for"

I have empathy for everyone born into the 3rd world. That doesn't mean I think we should bring them all here. The ones we do bring, we do so, because of empathy and hope.

"You are not clear about what you suggest"

I apologize. I'll try to clarify. I suggest that if Trump truly doesn't know why it's noble to bring some people from horrible places here, then he is a bigger jerk than I thought. And I thought he was a pretty big jerk.

"Historically, from the inception of this country, immigration "policy" has been very selective "

That's exactly true. Until, what, the Kennedy years?

"there was no mention of "empathy" in it."

Oh. So if the word isn't explicitly stated on an immigration document, then immigration policy cannot be based on empathy? I thought it was kind of obvious.

"What he doesn't want is massive thousands (of any kind) immigrating here within a vey short space of time, among whom would be many, if not a majority of those, especially from sh*thole countries, who do not fit the type 'you want"

That's not what he said. If he said "I don't want immigrants who won't be good neighbors", no one would take issue with that. No one. That's not what he said.

People cannot control what country they are born into. I'm not a huge fan of attacking people for things they did not choose, and have zero control over.

"You read racism into what he said"

Possibly racist in my opinion. I don't have a history of screaming racism every time someone I disagree with opens his mouth. It takes something to get me to that point. To assume that people from Norway are automatically superior to people from Africa and Haiti, isn't something I like coming out of the mouth of my POTUS. If he runs against Hilary again in 2020, I will once again have his sign on my lawn. But I thought this statement was deeply offensive.

I'm not even saying I'm opposed to being more selective in immigration, to bring people who are more likely to thrive and more likely to embrace our culture, I have no problem with that. He just sounded like a eugenicist. Let the liberals worship Margaret Sanger, I don't want that filth where I breathe.

[Pete F.]

Immigration is not based entirely on charity.
https://www.wikihow.com/Immigrate-In...es-Permanently

The history behind family based immigration and how immigration works is pretty interesting.
If you do some genealogy and find out about your ancestry you might find out that the places they came from are not so nice either. Nobody emigrates because there is too much opportunity.
You can find some basics on Wikepedia and move on from there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._United_States

[Pete F.]

I'll start off with my belief that of course we Norske are superior to everyone.
Now that I have that out of the way, I'll move on to the history of family entitlements. As i understand it in the 60s when the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 was passed the ability to have your relatives follow you was added. At that time it was thought that would help mostly Europeans. Surprise it didn't work like that.

[Raider Ronnie]

I wonder if some of that Clinton Foundation $ found its way to Haiti as it was supposed to if the place would less of a shiithole 👀
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

I wonder if some of that Clinton Foundation $ found its way to Haiti as it was supposed to if the place would less of a shiithole ��
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I read today today that a total of 6 homes were built with funds from the Clinton Foundation, cost was a little less than was spent on Chelsea's wedding

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

I read today today that a total of 6 homes were built with funds from the Clinton Foundation, cost was a little less than was spent on Chelsea's wedding

You ask me this website has become a ShiitHole ever since this political forum was added.
Not a day goes by there’s no political post & replies and nothing about fishing
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

You ask me this website has become a ShiitHole ever since this political forum was added.
Not a day goes by there’s no political post & replies and nothing about fishing
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Well there is that one thread in the Ice Fishing section that has been ok. Seen a few good pictures of bass and some big trout on there. And I enjoy seeing some of those beautiful flies that SaltyDog posts.

Sometimes this political forum reminds me to much of the comment sections on all the online news sites. The fish don't care who you voted for. I would bet that more than a few fishing friendships or possible friendships have been soured or prevented by this forum alone.

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

You ask me this website has become a ShiitHole ever since this political forum was added.
Not a day goes by there’s no political post & replies and nothing about fishing
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Agreed. I come here to check for new posts. See none other than this forum. Go over to other site for stuff to read about fishing or the tavern...

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

You ask me this website has become a ShiitHole ever since this political forum was added.
Not a day goes by there’s no political post & replies and nothing about fishing
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Say's the guy who seldom starts a thread in the fishing section during the year

at least in a political post you cant get accused of spot burning

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

You ask me this website has become a ShiitHole ever since this political forum was added.
Not a day goes by there’s no political post & replies and nothing about fishing
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Not true but it's a free country still last time I checked so you can exaggerate, there were zero posts in this forum for 2 full days on the 7th and 8th. Don't believe me? go check yourself.
You think the site is a shiithole, try being more positive instead of negative. But nobody asked you. Don't read the stuff you don't like. simple, so be more positive Ronnie or at least try to be

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

I read today today that a total of 6 homes were built with funds from the Clinton Foundation, cost was a little less than was spent on Chelsea's wedding

Oh good lord.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"You didn't qualify the word "empathy". So now you restrict it to not everyone we happen to feel sorry for"

I have empathy for everyone born into the 3rd world. That doesn't mean I think we should bring them all here. The ones we do bring, we do so, because of empathy and hope.

Empathy is a fine thing. Most of us empathize. But it cannot be a rational purpose for an immigration policy.

"You are not clear about what you suggest"

I apologize. I'll try to clarify. I suggest that if Trump truly doesn't know why it's noble to bring some people from horrible places here, then he is a bigger jerk than I thought. And I thought he was a pretty big jerk.

Where do you get that he doesn't know why it's noble? And is being noble another purpose besides empathy for an immigration policy?

"Historically, from the inception of this country, immigration "policy" has been very selective "

That's exactly true. Until, what, the Kennedy years?

Immigration and Nationality act of 1965--"It created a seven-category preference system, which gave priority to relatives of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents and to professionals and other individuals with specialized skills." Still selective. And not based on empathy or nobility.

"there was no mention of "empathy" in it."

Oh. So if the word isn't explicitly stated on an immigration document, then immigration policy cannot be based on empathy? I thought it was kind of obvious.

The change in the 1965 immigration policy was to eliminate the preference for European immigrants, and to create a more "multicultural" society. It was not based on empathy or nobility. The immigration "problem" created by that change arose when amnesty was given to the millions of illegal "immigrants" here which not only brought about an unanticipated (by "Conservatives--maybe "liberals" did anticipate it) huge shift in demographics, especially when it was enhanced with chain migration. If you empathize with chain migration and think it is a noble thing, you're welcome to your opinion. I don't agree with such an opinion.

"What he doesn't want is massive thousands (of any kind) immigrating here within a vey short space of time, among whom would be many, if not a majority of those, especially from sh*thole countries, who do not fit the type 'you want"

That's not what he said. If he said "I don't want immigrants who won't be good neighbors", no one would take issue with that. No one. That's not what he said.

Nor did he say anything about race. He has said, at other times, similar things about immigration which you espouse.

People cannot control what country they are born into. I'm not a huge fan of attacking people for things they did not choose, and have zero control over.

When did he "attack" some because of the country they were born in?

"You read racism into what he said"

Possibly racist in my opinion. I don't have a history of screaming racism every time someone I disagree with opens his mouth. It takes something to get me to that point. To assume that people from Norway are automatically superior to people from Africa and Haiti, isn't something I like coming out of the mouth of my POTUS. If he runs against Hilary again in 2020, I will once again have his sign on my lawn. But I thought this statement was deeply offensive.

Was he referring to "whites" or to a compatible culture peopled by those who are far more likely to have the skill sets and attitudes that fit our needs then those raised in a sh*thole?

I'm not even saying I'm opposed to being more selective in immigration, to bring people who are more likely to thrive and more likely to embrace our culture, I have no problem with that. He just sounded like a eugenicist. Let the liberals worship Margaret Sanger, I don't want that filth where I breathe.

From what he has said about immigration at other times, it sounds that you and he are more in agreement than disagreement. You may be giving him more credit than he deserves for being scientifically inclined. I think business, not eugenics, is his wheelhouse and point of view. He certainly has not said he believed in eugenics.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

From what he has said about immigration at other times, it sounds that you and he are more in agreement than disagreement. You may be giving him more credit than he deserves for being scientifically inclined. I think business, not eugenics, is his wheelhouse and point of view. He certainly has not said he believed in eugenics.

"Empathy is a fine thing. Most of us empathize. But it cannot be a rational purpose for an immigration policy."

The Battle Hymn Of The Republic says, I think, "as He died to make men holy, let us die to set them free". If empathy for people is a valid reason to go to war, surely it's enough of a reason to let some people come here.

"Where do you get that he doesn't know why it's noble? "

He asked why we are bringing in people from these countries? That tells me, he doesn't currently know why we would want to do it.

"If you empathize with chain migration and think it is a noble thing, you're welcome to your opinion. I don't agree with such an opinion."

I think I agree with you on that one. Being related to someone who is here, isn't a good enough reason, in and of itself.

"it sounds that you and he are more in agreement than disagreement"

I would bet you are probably right. I agree with most of his policy agenda. It's just that his choice of wording, is so unnecessarily offensive. Who would deny that Haiti is a sh*thole country?

I agree that these are sh*thole countries. They are beyond dysfunctional, horribly run, and causing immeasurable despair. But that's exactly why I want to bring some people from those places. People in Norway aren't tortured to death for speaking against the government, they don't need our help.

"You may be giving him more credit than he deserves for being scientifically inclined"

You re probably right on that score, as well.

The other aspect of this that angers me, is about domestic politics. Because of the economy, and because of which senators are up for re-election in November, what the democrats should be talking about, is whether or not the GOP will win unanimously in November. But because of this guy's inability to keep from saying godawful things, if the elections were today, the democrats would probably re-take the house. I don't want that nutjob Pelosi as speaker of the House again, and Trump is making that more likely, and I just can't stand it.

[Cool Beans]

I always find it odd, how it's always someone says they heard or a he said she said crap. I work in the government and every meeting there is someone taking notes or recording the meeting for others to view later. It's just weird to have no record of what was actually said or not.

And besides the point, who cares if he said, shiithole countries. Trump is a capitalist and isnt thinking like a racist, he is purely thinking it is economically smarter to be more careful where we accept the most immigrants from. I have not been to Haiti, but I have been to Peru, Ecuador, Shri Lanka, Papua New Guinea, Malaysia, Philippines, and Indonesia to name a few of the countries that I would call shiithole countries. Many of the people there are great, friendly and hard working, but their government policies and economic hardships make them shiithole countries. I believe that it wouldnt be a bad idea to accept immigrants from all or most all countries, with them all having similar limits on how many. If we have a limit of 500 from Sweden then Mexico should have the same 500 with the same requirements for employability and such. Shiithole countries are not necessarily filled with shiiity people. If we accept them then we should ensure they have the ability to succeed and not just let them all in. By limiting them and making certain requirements we help both them and America.

[Cool Beans]

What really happened...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Empathy is a fine thing. Most of us empathize. But it cannot be a rational purpose for an immigration policy."

The Battle Hymn Of The Republic says, I think, "as He died to make men holy, let us die to set them free". If empathy for people is a valid reason to go to war, surely it's enough of a reason to let some people come here.

Jim, Jim, Jim . . . you're a Christian . . . put a little religion in a religious battle hymn. Making men holy is not about empathy or being noble. Verses like "He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath [not empathy] are stored . . . they have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps; I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps . . . He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat; O be swift, my soul, to answer Him! Be jubilant my feet . . . with a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me; as He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, while God is marching on" are not about being empathetic or noble. They are about doing what is righteous in the eyes of God. "Wrath. . . altar . . . judgment," and a soul answering to Him (God), transfiguring us so as to make us capable and righteous and God fearing and God loving enough to die to make men free from the sin of slavery are about Christian duty not about empathy or nobility.

Great song BTW. It was supposed to have inspired the Northern troops. But not because of empathy for the slaves.



"Where do you get that he doesn't know why it's noble? "

He asked why we are bringing in people from these countries? That tells me, he doesn't currently know why we would want to do it.

It sounds more like a rhetorical "why" rather than an inquisitive one.

"If you empathize with chain migration and think it is a noble thing, you're welcome to your opinion. I don't agree with such an opinion."

I think I agree with you on that one. Being related to someone who is here, isn't a good enough reason, in and of itself.

"it sounds that you and he are more in agreement than disagreement"

I would bet you are probably right. I agree with most of his policy agenda. It's just that his choice of wording, is so unnecessarily offensive. Who would deny that Haiti is a sh*thole country?

It's a sign of desperation when the left's attacks are reduced to Trump's choice of words.

I agree that these are sh*thole countries. They are beyond dysfunctional, horribly run, and causing immeasurable despair. But that's exactly why I want to bring some people from those places. People in Norway aren't tortured to death for speaking against the government, they don't need our help.

But the point of immigration is to help us, not to help Norway, or Haiti, or any country from whence immigrants come.

"You may be giving him more credit than he deserves for being scientifically inclined"

You re probably right on that score, as well.

The other aspect of this that angers me, is about domestic politics. Because of the economy, and because of which senators are up for re-election in November, what the democrats should be talking about, is whether or not the GOP will win unanimously in November. But because of this guy's inability to keep from saying godawful things, if the elections were today, the democrats would probably re-take the house. I don't want that nutjob Pelosi as speaker of the House again, and Trump is making that more likely, and I just can't stand it.

You may be right about that. The Dems and their media lackeys are latching on to anything they can find or manufacture in order to distract from Trump's significant achievements to this point. They have to hurry up and stop his cannonball express before it gathers enough steam to roll right over them.

[wdmso]

Seems people have accepted the the POTUS should not be held to any standard.. of behavior or decency... Trump demands respect for himself and the Country and his office

But he does not give respect All Americans he shames the office and disrespects other Nations .. and his base rally around his Nationalism

[Jim in CT]

Detbuch, if Trump had said "we can't take in untold millions of penniless immigrants. We need more people who are already self sufficient and who live in a culture more like ours". If he had said that, I wouldn't have a problem with it, because the unfortunate truth is that it's an accurate thing to say.

It's also OK to call Haiti a #^&#^&#^&#^&hole country, because that's exactly what it is. Violently oppressive, horribly corrupt, beyond dysfunctional. He didn't say, or even come close to implying, that all Haitians are #^&#^&#^&#^&ty people, yet of course that's exactly how the media is spinning it. I saw people on every channel last night talking about the wonderful Haitian people they know. That's absurd. He was talking about the way the country is run. And he is right.

A year in, he has to know that statement, will be painted as if he said "we need fewer blacks and more whites". Maybe that's what he meant. Maybe it's not close to what he meant. But the media is going to act as if that's exactly what he said, and that increases the likelihood that Nancy Pelosi becomes the speaker again. We can't have that.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Detbuch, if Trump had said "we can't take in untold millions of penniless immigrants. We need more people who are already self sufficient and who live in a culture more like ours". If he had said that, I wouldn't have a problem with it, because the unfortunate truth is that it's an accurate thing to say.

It's also OK to call Haiti a #^&#^&#^&#^&hole country, because that's exactly what it is. Violently oppressive, horribly corrupt, beyond dysfunctional. He didn't say, or even come close to implying, that all Haitians are #^&#^&#^&#^&ty people, yet of course that's exactly how the media is spinning it. I saw people on every channel last night talking about the wonderful Haitian people they know. That's absurd. He was talking about the way the country is run. And he is right.

A year in, he has to know that statement, will be painted as if he said "we need fewer blacks and more whites". Maybe that's what he meant. Maybe it's not close to what he meant. But the media is going to act as if that's exactly what he said, and that increases the likelihood that Nancy Pelosi becomes the speaker again. We can't have that.

Whatever he said or didn't say, it was not a public statement. It was in a closed door session. I don't believe that #^&#^&#^&#^& Durbin, or Nancy Pelosi, or Bill Clinton, Or Barack Obama always used polite language in such sessions. It is recorded that many past presidents had potty mouths when not speaking to the public. Even Trump's presidential opponent, HRC, has been accused of foul mouthed language behind the scenes. It didn't bother her base or the mainstream media that she did. With Trump, it's a different matter. When he does it, he is unfit to be President.

It may be that, just as other Presidents and politicians were not seriously harmed for overly salty language, it may not hurt Trump. Of course, re Trump, it must always be "racist," or one of the other pick your poison phobes.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Whatever he said or didn't say, it was not a public statement. It was in a closed door session. I don't believe that #^&#^&#^&#^& Durbin, or Nancy Pelosi, or Bill Clinton, Or Barack Obama always used polite language in such sessions. It is recorded that many past presidents had potty mouths when not speaking to the public. Even Trump's presidential opponent, HRC, has been accused of foul mouthed language behind the scenes. It didn't bother her base or the mainstream media that she did. With Trump, it's a different matter. When he does it, he is unfit to be President.

It may be that, just as other Presidents and politicians were not seriously harmed for overly salty language, it may not hurt Trump. Of course, re Trump, it must always be "racist," or one of the other pick your poison phobes.

"It didn't bother her base or the mainstream media that she did. With Trump, it's a different matter. When he does it, he is unfit to be President."

That's true. And it's unfair. And it's also the reality, and Trump needs to remember that and not play into their hands in a way that helps them. I love it when he beats the media at their own game of fighting dirty. But I don't like it when he makes it easier for them to csling mud.

"it may not hurt Trump."

But it may hurt some GOP candidates running in purple districts. I want to keep the majority in the house. Trump needs to act as if that's his top priority.

I got caught up in an emotional reaction to what I was told he said. Even if he said it, while I wouldn't advise him to use that language until after the midterms, it's probably not as godawful a thing to say as I initially reacted. Those are sh*thole countries, that cannot be denied. That is not a criticism of the innocent people who live there, it's a criticism of the tyrants who run those places.

Detbuch, there is a family that runs the local gas station/convenience store in my town, been there for 15 years. I go in there most Sundays to fill my tank and buy the paper. They were from Liberia, one of the worst countries that ever existed. Came with nothing.

Got a job running the gas station. When they first got there, every Sunday, I'd see the Mom, Dad, son, and daughter. Always working. The kids were not playing video games, they were either working or studying. I got to know these people fairly well. They could not believe there was a place where they could work in an air conditioned building with running water and a flush toilet, selling things to happy customers all day long. They usually work 7 days a week. They could not believe the schools their kids went to with computers, teachers specializing in different classes, band, choir, activities. They could not believe they lived in an apartment that was comfortable and had a TV. They could not believe there was a country that took them out of the hell they were in, and transported them here.

The kids are both out of medical school, doing their residency or internships together.

Th parents cannot believe their good fortune, at what their kids are doing, compared to what might have happened.

The dad also tells me when he watches the news and he hears reporters talking about what a horrible racist place the US is, he cannot believe they are talking about the country that did so much for his family. He also told me something I will never, ever forget. He said it's better for a poor black man to be born in Africa and then to come here, than it is to be born in a place like Chicago. Because people in Chicago for some reason, embrace a culture that doesn't lend itself to a productive life. Whereas he had nothing, so he didn't take anything for granted. He can't believe that there are people who don't take full advantage of the opportunities here. I will never forget what he said, and I think he's exactly correct. But to hear it from his, is more profound and moving, than it is to hear it from a politician.

We can't take in all the world's poor. But I wouldn't want to limit immigration to self-sufficient white people either. Obviously it hurts poor Americans to import millions of unskilled penniless immigrants willing to work for 5 cents a day. We need some balance.

But there's something so right, so glorious, so uniquely American, about what this family's story is. And every town in America has families like that. These people love this country deeply, and have little patience for those who say that only the rich can get ahead, that there is institutional racism, etc.

Does that make any sense? I'm not even sure what I'm saying, I'm babbling a bit. I need to go get some gas and see this family, which always cheers me up. Always.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Whatever he said or didn't say, it was not a public statement. It was in a closed door session.

Doesn't matter.

I don't believe that #^&#^&#^&#^& Durbin, or Nancy Pelosi, or Bill Clinton, Or Barack Obama always used polite language in such sessions. It is recorded that many past presidents had potty mouths when not speaking to the public. Even Trump's presidential opponent, HRC, has been accused of foul mouthed language behind the scenes. It didn't bother her base or the mainstream media that she did. With Trump, it's a different matter. When he does it, he is unfit to be President

This has nothing to do with foul language.

[PaulS]

Stormy Daniels LOL
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

There also may be some question as to what Trump actually said. Trump is denying it, which is to be taken with a grain of salt.

#^&#^&#^&#^& Durbin claims he said it, which is also to be taken with a grain of salt.

Senator Tom Cotton (Republican who has been very critical of Trump in the past, graduate of Harvard and Harvard Law, Iraq combat veteran), claims he didn't hear Trump say sh*thole.

Who knows.

[Nebe]

Thank goodness that there were a series of social welfare programs and a liberal imigration policy that let this family in and get their start.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Thank goodness that there were a series of social welfare programs and a liberal imigration policy that let this family in and get their start.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Liberal programs brought him in - maybe. Once here, the nuclear family stayed very close together, worked 80+ hours a week, he kept a close eye on his kids, they go to church, and his kids studied like crazy. You tell me, does that more resemble liberalism or conservatism.

One generation - ONE - and his kids graduated from medical school. That doesn't happen in a racist country where we only care about the top 1%. Liberals never stop claiming otherwise, because it's much easier for poor people to be told that they are poor because wealthy people stole from them, then it is to hear that they are poor because they chose not to work as hard, or make as good decision, as this family.

[Sea Dangles]

Any person who thinks Haiti is not a crap hole has not been there. If he said it I am not exactly shocked.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Any person who thinks Haiti is not a crap hole has not been there. If he said it I am not exactly shocked.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Haiti might not be the best place to visit, but the people who reported after the tragic quake said they were amazed with the character and strength of the people.

Enjoy your bed tonight.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Haiti might not be the best place to visit, but the people who reported after the tragic quake said they were amazed with the character and strength of the people.

Enjoy your bed tonight.

Such a people of great character and strength should be able to build a great nation. A great Haiti.