Disaster

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

I bet if trump was still president and this exact thing happened you and your friends would be wanting him nominated for a nobel prize

What happened is the result of the lying and incompetence of the former administration, the Stable Genius was no more capable of accomplishing a withdrawal from Afghanistan than he was of passing infrastructure legislation, negotiating with anyone or telling the truth.

The Trump administrations Doha Agreement with the Taliban violated the most basic principles of self-government for the Afghan people. There was no way to enforce it or make sure the Taliban kept its word. There was no denunciation of al-Qaeda terrorists. Worst of all, the deal didn't mandate the Taliban stop attacks against Afghan security forces.

All of this set the stage for the chaotic scenes we're seeing on TV today.

Trump's deal with the Taliban was flawed from the start, which is why Trump's own officials are now scrambling to distance themselves from it. "To have our Generals say that they are depending on diplomacy with the Taliban is an unbelievable scenario. Negotiating with the Taliban is like dealing with the devil," tweeted Trump's ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, who certainly voiced no such objections while working for Trump. She was not alone. "Our secretary of state signed a surrender agreement with the Taliban," Trump's former national security adviser, H.R. McMaster, told journalist Bari Weiss. "This collapse goes back to the capitulation agreement of 2020. The Taliban didn't defeat us. We defeated ourselves."

Even Mike Pompeo, Trump's Secretary of State and the man who negotiated the deal with the Taliban in the first place, is now denouncing it. He had the audacity to tell Fox News that the "debacle" in Afghanistan "will certainly harm America's credibility with its friends and allies." He certainly didn't seem to think so while he was laying the groundwork for the debacle in the first place.

"We're letting the Taliban run free and wild all around Afghanistan," complained Pompeo, the man who cut the deal to release the Taliban's leader from prison in the first place. Trump ordered the release of 5,000 of the top captured Taliban fighters last year—a decision his own designated "peace envoy" Zalmay Khaliizad said publicly had disturbed him. Those same fighters are now threatening the streets of Kabul.

Republican outrage was also completely absent in the first 45 days of Donald Trump's agreement, when there were over 4,500 Taliban attacks resulting in over 900 Afghan casualties. Where was the Republican outrage about the Afghan army then, when their President handed over Afghanistan to the Taliban? Nonexistent.

They saved their denunciations for Biden's efforts to clean up Trump's mess—efforts which have as yet cost many fewer lives.

But this hypocrisy is not limited to former Trump officials. Take House Republican firebrand Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH), for example, who only tweeted once in 2014 about losing an American general in combat in Afghanistan, until discovering it as a partisan issue this summer. Now that he can blame Biden for Trump's mess, he hasn't stopped tweeting about it.

Jordan is one of many Republicans hypocritically denouncing a Biden withdrawal that they championed under Trump. The Republican Party used to brag about Trump's "historic" peace deal in Afghanistan. Now, they went so far as to delete that press release to pave the way for a new, partisan attack on President Biden over the end results of that very agreement.

Twitter is awash in angry Republicans outraged about our allies in Afghanistan who we should have evacuated before we left. And yet, it is Trump—and his advisor Stephen Miller—who are the reason so many Afghan interpreters are stuck in Afghanistan due to stalled special immigrant visa application infrastructure. Former Vice President Mike Pence advisor Olivia Troye wrote on Twitter that folks like Trump and Miller made it "even more challenging" to get allies out, overriding the concerns of others in the administration. "There were cabinet meetings about this during the Trump Admin where Stephen Miller would peddle his racist hysteria about Iraq & Afghanistan," Troye wrote. "He & his enablers across gov't would undermine anyone who worked on solving the SIV issue by devastating the system at DHS & State."

In fact, at the end of last year, the Trump administration had nearly 11,000 visas authorized by Congress for Afghans who helped America during the last 20 years—but only gave out 1,300 while most of the withdrawal took place.

So whose fault is it that so many of those who helped us are stuck in Afghanistan? The burden of that responsibility falls squarely on Trump's shoulders. And it is Biden who is working diligently to get them out.

And it was Trump who bragged just this April that the process of moving the U.S. military out of Afghanistan had progressed to a point that even if President Biden wanted to, he "couldn't stop the process." Trump was right: There was nothing Biden could do to stop what was coming in Afghanistan short of another massive U.S. military deployment. According to the text of the February 29, 2020 agreement Trump signed with the Taliban, within 135 days, America would withdraw from five major bases and agreed to complete the rest of its major withdrawals within nine months. In other words, the Trump administration agreed to pull out of Afghanistan long before Biden's inauguration, which it mostly accomplished.

You can read it yourself

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upl...n-02.29.20.pdf

[scottw]

lengthy posts with links to more lengthy stuff should be forbidden...

[wdmso]

The MAGA world and the GOPQ have taken the all or nothing approach to Afghanistan.. How many people American gets out is not a concern of Theirs and honestly some on the left .. they have this unrealistic expectation that some how we the USA are going to remove anyone who worked with the US in the past 20 years and All Americans…. Yet nobody knows who these people are and many Americans who never registered with the embassy…. But regardless of the numbers saved Republicans will label this a failure they will move the goal post to Another emotion complaint ! and they have . Now theAfghans who they cried we’re being left to die are now to dangerous to come to America

prominent conservatives are warning that these desperate people asking for our help are actually a dire threat to America.

Steven Miller. Tweet. It is becoming increasingly clear that Biden & his radical deputies will use their catastrophic debacle in Afghanistan as a pretext for doing to America what Angela Merkel did to Germany & Europe.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said the U.S. owes it to its friends in Afghanistan to help get them out and resettle them elsewhere.


so I will ask a simple question what from on withdrawal would have been acceptable? What does that look like ?

This withdrawal looks like a horrible and ugly to watch, but it looks like our Military and state department are doing a great job getting people out.. yet the Right refuses to support them and the POTUS and the Nation! To get this done

They would rather complain about masks or but promote ivermectin like Ingram Hannity and Tucker amazing
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

The MAGA world


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is that still a thing?

[Pete F.]

The link to more lengthy stuff is to the Stable Genius’ brilliantly negotiated agreement.
His administration’s explanation is, they weren’t going to go through with that, they were just going to break it
Trustworthy guys
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

The link to more lengthy stuff is to the Stable Genius’ brilliantly negotiated agreement.
His administration’s explanation is, they weren’t going to go through with that, they were just going to break it
Trustworthy guys
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so is it trumps fault that it's such a disaster or biden's credit that it's such a success?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

so is it trumps fault that it's such a disaster or biden's credit that it's such a success?

I don’t remember Donald Trump flying one Kurd to safety. He let Turkey slaughter them. They were our allies that served side by side with our troops.

Where was the outrage from you and the Fox Russian Propaganda Machine???

Biden has safely evacuated over 79,000 Afghans.

Trump had the administrative authority to issue nearly 11,000 visas authorized by Congress for Afghans who helped America during the last 20 years—but only gave out 1,300 while most of the withdrawal took place.

[Got Stripers]

If Trump were in office and he had his way, I suspect he would prefer to pull only US citizens out, maybe some of the Afghan helping us for years. Everyone else he views, as evidenced by rhetoric and policy moves, to be potential terrorists. I think it’s amazing how many people have been successfully evacuated, Trump would I believe make a big fat mess of it due to his belief he is smarter than ALL his advisers civilian or military.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

If Trump were in office and he had his way, I suspect he would prefer to pull only US citizens out, maybe some of the Afghan helping us for years. Everyone else he views, as evidenced by rhetoric and policy moves, to be potential terrorists. I think it’s amazing how many people have been successfully evacuated, Trump would I believe make a big fat mess of it due to his belief he is smarter than ALL his advisers civilian or military.

this is a shocking prediction......

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I don’t remember Donald Trump flying one Kurd to safety. He let Turkey slaughter them. They were our allies that served side by side with our troops.

Where was the outrage from you and the Fox Russian Propaganda Machine???

Biden has safely evacuated over 79,000 Afghans.

Trump had the administrative authority to issue nearly 11,000 visas authorized by Congress for Afghans who helped America during the last 20 years—but only gave out 1,300 while most of the withdrawal took place.

so it's trumps fault....

[wdmso]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-58071592

Good read
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-58071592

Good read
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BUT THEY'RE NOT EVEN AMERICAN!!!!

[Pete F.]

Pulling out of a two decade long imperial fantasy that achieved little more than mass casualties — and deciding to eat the political costs that accompany the complicated maneuver — is the precise opposite of political rhetoric.

There was a magical way for the US to leave that didn’t cause the Afghan army and govt to collapse. Trump had that plan. He kept it hidden with his taxes, infrastructure and healthcare plans along with his National Debt reduction dream.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Pulling out of a two decade long imperial fantasy that achieved little more than mass casualties — and deciding to eat the political costs that accompany the complicated maneuver — is the precise opposite of political rhetoric.

There was a magical way for the US to leave that didn’t cause the Afghan army and govt to collapse. Trump had that plan. He kept it hidden with his taxes, infrastructure and healthcare plans along with his National Debt reduction dream.

Beautiful reverie. Biden--the emergence of a statesman. Wasn't he part of that long train of events and decisions that created the mess. And now he is finally willing to "eat the political costs". Wonder what those costs will be. Will he live long enough to run for a second term. Would the Democrats even let that happen. Not sure of what costs he will pay. Some verbal spanking by the press which will drift into the ether in the next weeks version of the news? Surely not an uncontested rebirth of the Hunter Biden lap top story.

[JohnR]

"The first person I was instructed to call on..."

And this was not the low point of that presser.

[wdmso]

It sad to see such loss of life and they had Intel something was going to happen .. however American need to decide
How many lives lost is enough or what are we willing to sacrifice to get everyone out? is 70k enough? Do we even know how many Americans are even in country should we stay longer ! we can’t have it both ways it’s not a movie

I know my answer .. but I am 1 of many
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[scottw]

stellar press conference.....I like how he reads off the grocery list of who to call on for the prepared question

[Got Stripers]

Trump abandoned Syria, evacuated zero of our Kurdish allies and handed over our military bases to Russia, I guess the fake outrage is to be expected.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Trump abandoned Syria, evacuated zero of our Kurdish allies and handed over our military bases to Russia, I guess the fake outrage is to be expected.
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don't try to change the subject...

[Pete F.]

On October 23, 1983, a terrorist drove a truck filled with explosives into Marine HQ in Beirut, killing 241 Marines. That came 6 months after a terrorist attack on the US embassy killed 63. Reagan promptly pulled out of Lebanon. No Democrats called on Reagan to resign, or said he should be impeached.

The reality is, for 20 yrs there have been terrorist suicide bombers killing civilians and Americans nearly daily in Afghanistan. This is why America is leaving. Only NOW they are outraged because it's all a political game for them. Appalling doesn't even begin to describe
Trumplicans.

I'm just a little skeptical of the motives of the politicians saying yesterday's tragedy requires an instant rethinking of policy but after every mass shooting in this country insist the only answer is to do absolutely nothing.

[scottw]

definitely getting a Nobel Prize....

[Pete F.]

Over 70,000 Afghan civilians, 40,000 Afghan soldiers, and 2,743 Americans have died in this conflict.

General Mark Hertling's assessment of what's happening and the difficulties in Afghanistan

A suicide attack - SVIED or VBIED - is a commander’s biggest threat in these environments. They’re hard to stop, even at checkpoints…because they are already there and can be initiated when found.
The only way to address them is 1) find the cell that is making them 2) constantly change methods at checkpoints 3) have greater standoff 4) limit crowds. All of these were difficult at HKIA.
We had a network of female suicide vest wearers in Iraq that were particularly confounding. Widows of terrorists, group leaders drugged them, convinced them they had nothing to live for, and sent them on their mission.
They also had the advantage of wearing abayas and not being checked by security, due to cultural issues of not checking women.
We only found the cell and countered it when we got women on the police force who would work checkpoints. But that took time.
Yesterday’s bombing was horrific. Given the crowds, the crush at the singular gates, the dynamics of inner & outer checkpoints at HKIA, and the desires of ISK to counter Taliban & US actions, this threat was always on my mind, and I’m sure the minds of the NEO commanders.
Contributing to all this: the time constraints of the mission and the incredible complexity of conducting a difficult NEO in a non-permissive environment.
The NEO will continue in this 3d phase, as I pointed out a few days ago, with ever decreasing outflow of evacuees. We’ll soon seen the transition to phase 4, which is the final phase (likely start on Sunday). That will also present huge challenges.
Even with the horrific actions of yesterday, I continue to give high marks to the conduct of this difficult mission, though not all will be evacuated.
And God/Allah bless the souls of those service-members and Afghans who lost their lives or were injured in the despicable & deadly attack.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Over 70,000 Afghan civilians, 40,000 Afghan soldiers, and 2,743 Americans have died in this conflict.

General Mark Hertling's assessment of what's happening and the difficulties in Afghanistan

A suicide attack - SVIED or VBIED - is a commander’s biggest threat in these environments. They’re hard to stop, even at checkpoints…because they are already there and can be initiated when found.
The only way to address them is 1) find the cell that is making them 2) constantly change methods at checkpoints 3) have greater standoff 4) limit crowds. All of these were difficult at HKIA.
We had a network of female suicide vest wearers in Iraq that were particularly confounding. Widows of terrorists, group leaders drugged them, convinced them they had nothing to live for, and sent them on their mission.
They also had the advantage of wearing abayas and not being checked by security, due to cultural issues of not checking women.
We only found the cell and countered it when we got women on the police force who would work checkpoints. But that took time.
Yesterday’s bombing was horrific. Given the crowds, the crush at the singular gates, the dynamics of inner & outer checkpoints at HKIA, and the desires of ISK to counter Taliban & US actions, this threat was always on my mind, and I’m sure the minds of the NEO commanders.
Contributing to all this: the time constraints of the mission and the incredible complexity of conducting a difficult NEO in a non-permissive environment.
The NEO will continue in this 3d phase, as I pointed out a few days ago, with ever decreasing outflow of evacuees. We’ll soon seen the transition to phase 4, which is the final phase (likely start on Sunday). That will also present huge challenges.
Even with the horrific actions of yesterday, I continue to give high marks to the conduct of this difficult mission, though not all will be evacuated.
And God/Allah bless the souls of those service-members and Afghans who lost their lives or were injured in the despicable & deadly attack.

I did days ago

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

On October 23, 1983, a terrorist drove a truck filled with explosives into Marine HQ in Beirut, killing 241 Marines. That came 6 months after a terrorist attack on the US embassy killed 63. Reagan promptly pulled out of Lebanon. No Democrats called on Reagan to resign, or said he should be impeached.

The reality is, for 20 yrs there have been terrorist suicide bombers killing civilians and Americans nearly daily in Afghanistan. This is why America is leaving. Only NOW they are outraged because it's all a political game for them. Appalling doesn't even begin to describe
Trumplicans.

I'm just a little skeptical of the motives of the politicians saying yesterday's tragedy requires an instant rethinking of policy but after every mass shooting in this country insist the only answer is to do absolutely nothing.

One of my friends from high school died in that bombing.

It still remains the right needs to make up their minds .. you can’t have boots on the ground or more boots on the ground and think any risk to these people is unacceptable that’s not how operations in a hostile environment works , and those brave marines were doing HAND pat downs so A Bomber like that couldn’t get on a plane and kill many many more .. their the tip of the spear .. and no amount out bombs from above are going to stop a suicide bomber .. or an IED both are the leading cause of KIA in Iraq and Afghanistan..

I get bothered by this Idea that because American has the biggest baddest Military ( true by the way )

That this some how should translate into how could we lose …

ask the British the Russians and any other Nation who tried .. they all will tell you they were beat by Time
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

It still remains the right needs to make up their minds ..

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how many minds do you suppose the right has?

[detbuch]

There's this though provoking article, and it doesn't spare the Trump administration:

https://thedispatch.com/p/a-defeat-of-choice

[wdmso]

I read it until What the president did not mention in his haste to shift blame to the Afghans was that our premature withdrawal of military support left the Afghan army virtually inoperable. When we stopped American air support—without warning—and halted all logistical assistance, it was like cutting off a diver’s air supply.

This is the biggest excuse being peddled by many

But the president opted to explain the asphyxiation of the Afghan war effort on Afghan cowardice.

Because it was cowardice

If they the Afghan Army still required Americans to feed them and do everything for them After 20 years .. what’s the point?

Because it’s clear many other countries military left in June and they did not conduct early evacuation of their personal .. and I can only speculate they also felt that the Afghan Army was going to fight.

When that didn’t happen you saw many countries returning to do what American was doing . Seeing the Afghans chose the Taliban by not fighting
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[Raider Ronnie]

Nice departing gift we left for our enemies that will no doubt pull off another 9/11 attack.
Thanks Joe





-2,000 Armored Vehicles Including Humvees and MRAP’s
-75,989 Total Vehicles: FMTV, M35, Ford Rangers, Ford F350, Ford Vans, Toyota Pickups, Armored Security Vehicles etc
-45 UH-60 Blachhawk Helicopters
-50 MD530G Scout Attack Choppers
-ScanEagle Military Drones
-30 Military Version Cessnas
-4 C-130’s
-29 Brazilian made A-29 Super Tocano Ground Attack Aircraft
208+ Aircraft Total
-At least 600,000+ Small arms M16, M249 SAWs, M24 Sniper Systems, 50 Calibers, 1,394 M203 Grenade Launchers, M134 Mini Gun, 20mm Gatling Guns and Ammunition
-61,000 M203 Rounds
-20,040 Grenades
-Howitzers
-Mortars +1,000’s of Rounds
-162,000 pieces of Encrypted Military Comunications Gear
-16,000+ Night Vision Goggles
-Newest Technology Night Vision Scopes
-Thermal Scopes and Thermal Mono Goggles
-10,000 2.75 inch Air to Ground Rockets
-Recconaissance Equipment (ISR)
-Laser Aiming Units
-Explosives Ordnance C-4, Semtex, Detonators, Shaped Charges, Thermite, Incendiaries, AP/API/APIT
-2,520 Bombs
-Administration Encrypted Cell Phones and Laptops all operational
-Pallets with Millions of Dollars in US Currency
-Millions of Rounds of Ammunition including but not limited to 20,150,600 rounds of 7.62mm, 9,000,000 rounds of 50.caliber
-Large Stockpile of Plate Carriers and Body Armor
-US Military HIIDE, for Handheld Interagency Identity Detection Equipment Biometrics
-Lots of Heavy Equipment Including Bull Dozers, Backhoes, Dump Trucks, Excavators

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Nice departing gift we left for our enemies that will no doubt pull off another 9/11 attack.
Thanks Joe





-2,000 Armored Vehicles Including Humvees and MRAP’s
-75,989 Total Vehicles: FMTV, M35, Ford Rangers, Ford F350, Ford Vans, Toyota Pickups, Armored Security Vehicles etc
-45 UH-60 Blachhawk Helicopters
-50 MD530G Scout Attack Choppers
-ScanEagle Military Drones
-30 Military Version Cessnas
-4 C-130’s
-29 Brazilian made A-29 Super Tocano Ground Attack Aircraft
208+ Aircraft Total
-At least 600,000+ Small arms M16, M249 SAWs, M24 Sniper Systems, 50 Calibers, 1,394 M203 Grenade Launchers, M134 Mini Gun, 20mm Gatling Guns and Ammunition
-61,000 M203 Rounds
-20,040 Grenades
-Howitzers
-Mortars +1,000’s of Rounds
-162,000 pieces of Encrypted Military Comunications Gear
-16,000+ Night Vision Goggles
-Newest Technology Night Vision Scopes
-Thermal Scopes and Thermal Mono Goggles
-10,000 2.75 inch Air to Ground Rockets
-Recconaissance Equipment (ISR)
-Laser Aiming Units
-Explosives Ordnance C-4, Semtex, Detonators, Shaped Charges, Thermite, Incendiaries, AP/API/APIT
-2,520 Bombs
-Administration Encrypted Cell Phones and Laptops all operational
-Pallets with Millions of Dollars in US Currency
-Millions of Rounds of Ammunition including but not limited to 20,150,600 rounds of 7.62mm, 9,000,000 rounds of 50.caliber
-Large Stockpile of Plate Carriers and Body Armor
-US Military HIIDE, for Handheld Interagency Identity Detection Equipment Biometrics
-Lots of Heavy Equipment Including Bull Dozers, Backhoes, Dump Trucks, Excavators

Here we Go... all that equipment was provided by the US and other countries for the past 20yrs by several Administrations .. For the Afghan Army to defend their Country .. to include their air force who ran quicker than the french in WW2

Uzbek government official confirmed to Air Force Magazine that 46 aircraft, including 22 fixed wing and 24 helicopters, and 585 Afghan airmen and soldiers had fled to Uzbekistan by air after the fall of Kabul.

and as if on Cue Conservatives make excuses why they ran.. never once calling them Cowards then move on to a new outrage AKA your list ... completely ignoring whos equipment it was and why it was even there ... for the past 20 years .. So now you think the taliban is going to fly a blackhawk to attack America Cant argue with such logic

[Got Stripers]

Wayne they get the talking points from the usual outlets, never mind the fact the US should have never stayed there after our initial mission was completed. We all enjoy our democracy, but to be so arrogant to believe we can force that way of life elsewhere is a mistake we continue to make.