I just dont get it

[scottw]

don't know if you caught Howard Dean's comments on the issue but he insists that the best possible scenario for Progressives is that we have no deal resulting in higher taxes on everyone, massive cuts to the military and slide into another recession....he seems to think that in the end this will result in deficit reduction and the economy will come "roaring back"...the dems with the help of the media will of course blame the repubs. for any pain during the course of events and enjoy the benefits politically.....I agree with him on the first part, it would be the best "for them", but I'm pretty confident that the minor recession that he believes will occur will be far worse than he anticipates and the "roaring back" part will be difficult as the dems take yet another opportunity of yet another crisis to expand the nanny state, spending and debt....

Going Off Fiscal Cliff The "Best Deal Progressive Democrats Are Going To Get"

HOWARD DEAN: "I make the argument that going off the -- as you call it the curb, I call it the slope, the press calls it the cliff, is actually the best deal progressive Democrats are going to get. And here's why. One, we get the Clinton tax rates on everybody. Will it cause a problem? Yes. There will be a short recession, and it will be painful. But two, we get defense cuts. Republicans are never going to agree to that. And three, there are some human services cuts, which we're not going to like. But it's the least possible damage.

Now what do we get in exchange? A serious down payment of the deficit. The Wall Street people, who wringing their hands of this, are really full of it because what they're going to see is a big drop on Wall Street while all the hype comes and then it's going to be roaring back because finally somebody has done something serious about the deficit.

So, I think the fiscal curb, as you call it, is the best deal that progressive Democrats are going to get. And I think it's the best deal in the long run, not the short run."




Republicans should just walk away, the majority of Americans voted this course and as someone once said, "the voters have spoken, and now they must suffer"....

this guy wrote a lengthy article that's worth the read if you want to consider what is going on in a broader sense...not encouraging however...

http://www.americanthinker.com/print...r_problem.html

"As for the socialist authoritarians themselves, we must not fall into the trap of judging radical leftists as if they think like decent or reasonable people. (The "well-creased-pant-leg-means-he'll-make-a-good-president" fallacy.) What you and I judge as societal failure is, to them, of little consequence in and of itself. For general prosperity is not their goal. In short, the intellectual leaders of the left know as well as you do that their regulatory state with its confiscatory taxation, propagandistic education, and morally subversive cultural elite will not produce prosperity and individual happiness, i.e., that their regime will "fail" the true test of good government."

"In the case of America and the rest of the West, the leftist superstructure (to borrow the appropriately Marxist terminology) is not generally perceived as having been imposed from without. Rather, it has grown from seed within the modern West itself, carefully cultivated by successive generations of an anti-individualist educational elite, an anti-liberal governing class, and an anti-virtue, anti-rational intellectual establishment. As a result, the citizenry has gradually given way to a new entity, "the masses" (once again using the suitable Marxist language), a collectivist majority without any of the reflexes of self-reliance, self-restraint and shame that a virtuous citizenry would have; without any of the respect or capacity for rational deliberation, forethought, and common sense that a properly educated citizenry would have; and without the universalizable notion of freedom -- freedom as an equal, natural right, rather than a childish wish-fulfillment fantasy -- that a citizenry not enmeshed in the mass manipulations of class envy would have."

[RIJIMMY]

meanwhile, back in reality world, the only people serious about compromising and making beneficial policy are the wacky party of No

In an interview in his Capitol Hill office, Mr. McConnell (R., Ky.) said if the White House agrees to changes such as higher Medicare premiums for the wealthy, an increase in the Medicare eligibility age and a slowing of cost-of-living increases for programs like Social Security, Republicans would agree to include more tax revenue in the deal, though not from higher tax rates.

"Those are the kinds of things that would get Republicans interested in new revenue," Mr. McConnell said.

Mr. McConnell's comments represent some of the clearest statements of principle from Republicans on the thorny issue of reining in the ballooning cost of the U.S.'s entitlement programs. They also offer a potential path forward in what have become a heated series of talks.

[RIJIMMY]

right on queue....

WASHINGTON—House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi will try to force a vote on the House floor to extend current tax rates for the middle class next week if Republicans do not act, the California Democrat announced on Friday.

During a press conference on Capitol Hill, Pelosi called on House Republicans, who control the chamber, to hold another floor vote on whether to extend current tax rates for individuals who earn $200,000 or less and families making $250,000 or less. If they don't, Pelosi vowed to file a "discharge petition" that would force a vote if 218 House members sign it, which is unlikely.

Pelosi said she wanted the bill passed so Congress will have more time to negotiate broader tax reform in 2013.

raise taxes, but we'll do it in the guise of lowering taxes for middle class and the we'll kick the can down the road and never solve the problem! And get this, the people we benefit own the largest % of votes and arent smart enough or care what we did and the small % we are screwing dont have the votes to impact us! its brilliant!

[RIJIMMY]

No progress made, same crap as last week and the year before. All politics and no progress. And as I said earlier 90% of Americans dont get it. we're screwed.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

No progress made, same crap as last week and the year before. All politics and no progress. And as I said earlier 90% of Americans dont get it. we're screwed.

yup...same crap...."hostage taking"...again...look on the bright side Jim, after a short period of pain, according to Dean...everything will be bliss....I heard Obama state the other day that this is not about him being stubborn,,,it's about "math"....I'm not too sure about this Obama math

Jake Tapper qestioning Jay Carney recently...

Q: Jay, speaking of the debt ceiling, does an agreement to raise the debt ceiling have to be part of an agreement to avert the fiscal cliff?

CARNEY: We’re not going to negotiate over what is a fundamental responsibility of Congress, which is to pay the bills that Congress incurred. It should be part of the deal. It should be done and it should be done without drama.

We cannot allow our economy to be held hostage again to the whims of an ideological agenda. We are the United States of America. We are the greatest economy on Earth. We pay our bills. We always have. If Congress wants to reduce spending, that should be part of the negotiations that go into making decisions about how we spend — the programs we spend money on.

Q: Just a second ago, you referred to, when talking about the debt ceiling, taking it off the table needs to be part of the deal. You referred to the economy being held hostage by an ideological view. You’re aware that when he was a senator, President Obama voted against raising it.

CARNEY: We addressed that and there was no threat of default at the time. What happened in 2011 — as we all know, because we all lived it, most of us in this room — was the threat of default, a willingness expressed on the record and publicly by numerous members of Congress to see the American economy under default and with all the consequent impacts on the global economy and on the American middle class in order to achieve some sort of political victory that was driven by ideology and partisanship.

Q: So it’s okay for people to engage in that kind of nonsense if it’s –

CARNEY: Jake, I appreciate the question, and we engaged in this a lot at the time and I refer you to my comments about it back then. But the fact that –

Q — people voting the way that Senator Obama did and except you’re using derisive terms –

CARNEY: What happened in 2011 is that Republicans in Congress demanded — said they would let America default for the first time in its history if they did not get the items on their agenda. That was consequential and it was unprecedented, and the result was bad for everyone.

....................

Obama said, "I have said before that the middle class tax cuts were being held hostage to the high end tax cuts. I think it is tempting not to negotiate with hostage takers unless the hostage gets harmed." Barack Obama 2010


“At a time when our discourse has become so sharply polarized, at a time when we are far too eager to lay the blame for all that ails the world at the feet of those who think differently than we do,” he said, “it’s important for us to pause for a moment and make sure that we are talking with each other in a way that heals, not a way that wounds.” “Let’s make sure it’s not on the usual plane of politics and point scoring and pettiness that drifts away with the next news cycle.” Barack Obama 2011

this is great...

Nov 15 2012

"Mr. Obama again forgot his past sops to civility by accusing Republicans of holding his tax hike agenda "hostage." His subordinates routinely refer to Republicans as "hostage takers" for having principled policy disagreements. In the interest of "coming together," there is a solution.

What Mr. Obama considers hostage taking is what the Founding Fathers called democracy and separation of powers. Sadly, Mr. Obama's ego is held hostage by itself."

[Piscator]

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

- Winston Churchill

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Piscator

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

- Winston Churchill

Yeah well what did Winston Churchill know??
All these guys in power now couldn't drum up a peanut brain amongst all of
them combined.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Yeah well what did Winston Churchill know??
All these guys in power now couldn't drum up a peanut brain amongst all of
them combined.

How true. Imagine having to filibuster against a bill you had just pushed for a vote.

[scottw]

this is why the republicans should just walk away...allow higher taxes, military cuts- both progressive goals....negotiating with these people is futile

"Howard Dean delivers a bracing blast of leftist honesty on MSNBC: “The only problem is… and this is initially going to seem like heresy from a progressive is… the truth is everybody needs to pay more taxes, not just the rich. And it’s a good start. But we’re not going to get out of this deficit problem unless we raise taxes across the board, to go back to what Bill Clinton had and his taxes. And if we don’t do that, the problem is the pressure is going to be on spending even more.”"


allow the prez to assume the power to raise the debt limit as high as he sees fit....it will all work out...you'll see

this is the age of Obama...we just hit the lowest unemployment % number in years...

of course, we hit that low because... "The jobless rate dropped in large part because the labor force fell by 350,000, suggesting that people gave up looking for work. The number of people saying they had a job actually fell by 122,000. And the Labor Department revised downward its estimates of job creation in September and October by a combined 49,000 jobs."

Obama math....I wonder where all of these people that are giving up looking for work month after month are going?

CNBC-The Labor Department statistics had some puzzling contradictions, particularly in the assertion that Sandy "did not substantively impact" the jobs count for November, and in considerable downward revisions from previous months.

Also, the drop in the unemployment rate appeared to reflect little more than a continued exodus of workers from the labor force.

The labor force participation rate, already around 30-year lows, fell further in the month to 63.6 percent. That represented 350,000 fewer workers.

In all, there were a net 122,000 fewer people with jobs.

An alternative measure of unemployment, which counts those who have given up looking for jobs as well as those working part-time for economic reasons, also edged lower to 14.4 percent.

"Same old, same old. The government managed to get the unemployment rate down by shrinking the labor force and convincing a lot of people they're better off collecting unemployment benefits or living off welfare than working," said Peter Schiff, CEO and chief global strategist at Euro Pacific Capital. "It's more bogus government numbers."



more Fed Pump...more stimulus....higher debt limit...higher taxes....more regulation...that's the ticket

[spence]

That chart is meaningless.

The report they cite was based on bad data and the Administration was quick to admit this. If you're trying to demonstrate the real impact of the Stimulus on unemployment (good or bad) you would need to recalculate the projection based on the actual measured economic impact of the recession...and then compare to the unemployment rate.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

That chart is meaningless.

The report they cite was based on bad data and the Administration was quick to admit this. -spence

oh really?? then surely they must have corrected the projections using "good" data as soon as they realized this and after they quickly admitted this...you probably have those revised numbers/projections handy right???

the fact is that either projection has us at what would be a reasonable expectation for a recovery, the administration was trying to sell massive spending as a way to get there more quickly and the only reason that they can claim the current unemployment rate is the direct result of millions and millions of Americans leaving the workforce and climbing on to the government dole....at this rate a 5% unemployment rate will be the result of an even larger proportion of the population on permanent government assistance

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by scottw

oh really?? then surely they must have corrected the projections using "good" data as soon as they realized this and after they quickly admitted this...you probably have those revised numbers/projections handy right???

the fact is that either projection has us at what would be a reasonable expectation for a recovery, the administration was trying to sell massive spending as a way to get there more quickly and the only reason that they can claim the current unemployment rate is the direct result of millions and millions of Americans leaving the workforce and climbing on to the government dole....at this rate a 5% unemployment rate will be the result of a large proportion of the population on permanent government assistance

Didn't the CBO calculate recently that extending unemployment compensation another year for those whose benefits are about to expire will create or save 300,000 jobs? Exactly like you say--we can get to 5% unemployment by laying off enough people to collect unemployment. Wow, if enough lose their jobs, we can reach 0% unemployment. I wonder if that calculates to everyone losing their jobs creates 100% employment?

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Didn't the CBO calculate recently that extending unemployment compensation another year for those whose benefits are about to expire will create or save 300,000 jobs? Exactly like you say--we can get to 5% unemployment by laying off enough people to collect unemployment. Wow, if enough lose their jobs, we can reach 0% unemployment. I wonder if that calculates to everyone losing their jobs creates 100% employment?

With that line of reasoning you could eliminate all taxes and generate infinite revenues.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

With that line of reasoning you could eliminate all taxes and generate infinite revenues.

-spence

Actually, the line of reasoning would eliminate all taxes except those on the rich and create infinite debt.

[striperman36]

they also should not remove, those who stopped looking for work. What 350,000 stopped looking last month?

[RIJIMMY]

Minutes earlier, House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California argued that Obama and Congress already cut spending in budget battles of the past two years. Now, she said, Republicans want further spending cuts to address most or all of needed deficit reduction.

"At some point you are cutting the seed corn of our future," Pelosi told reporters, adding, "You're not going to reduce the deficit by ... only cutting your way to it because you will cut the prospects for job creation, which produce revenue."

and there you have it. Why are the greedy, evil, rich loving republicans holding out? Because if they agree to raise taxes on UPPER MIDDLE CLASS people, the Dems will never come back to the table to negotiate fixing this mess. they will celebrate that they avoided the fiscal cliff and raised tax on the rich and kick the can down the road. and spence will think its cute and 90% of Americans wont have a clue.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

and there you have it. Why are the greedy, evil, rich loving republicans holding out? Because if they agree to raise taxes on UPPER MIDDLE CLASS people, the Dems will never come back to the table to negotiate fixing this mess. they will celebrate that they avoided the fiscal cliff and raised tax on the rich and kick the can down the road. and spence will think its cute and 90% of Americans wont have a clue.

You sir owe me a new shirt that doesn't have a fresh coffee stain on it.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

"At some point you are cutting the seed corn of our future," Pelosi told reporters, adding, "You're not going to reduce the deficit by ... only cutting your way to it because you will cut the prospects for job creation, which produce revenue."

Ya revenue, revenue revenue. For the first 2 months of this fiscal year the Govt
took in $60 Billion more than last year, but spent $62 Billion more
in the same 2 months. There's your revenue.
The Repubs already offered $800 Billion in closing tax deductions.That was Obama's first request, then he upped it to 1.6 Billion. That's compromise???

I would like to see the Rebubs re-offer the deductions and add a %5 cut
across the board, except military, period. Very reasonable. If they don't take it, let the Dems drive us off the cliff, then let them take the blame for the conseqences.

[striperman36]

water out the nose