Michael Vick--

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JFigliuolo

"Michael is a human being," Crumpler said. "People have been trying to dehumanize him. But he's hurting. I know that. Believe me, he's hurting."

Ya, couldn't you tell he was hurting by the expression on his face as he went to court.

Then Upshaw trys to soften things by saying, "he's young."
Come on the guy is 27 years old.

Ya Crumpler, we are all human beings, none of us are perfect, but Upshaw, a 5 year old would know what he was doing was wrong.

[EarnedStripes44]

...and remember, all you hotsauce right wingers, we used to be innocent until proven guilty. Albert Gonzales is over the Justice Dept. The same cronies investigating Vick, no one has yet to question their credibility. The Surry County DA wanted to make sure the case was watertight, but the FEDS went in for the kill.

[EarnedStripes44]

I repeat 7th in winning percentage of starting quaterbacks last season, before the injuries....that may not make you GREAT, but that damn sure is GOOD......

[EarnedStripes44]

I feel like you guys are ignoring the facts...and I can't imagine that all you guys volunteer at the Humane Society. Say what you want about Vick's personal life, I'll put you on the phone with my wife and she'll give you an earful about A.I., A-Rod, Vick, etc...., just acknowledge that at the very least, VERY LEAST he is a GOOD quaterback (some of you have already done so, but those others, you know you are). So all personal inklings aside, whose losing?

[EarnedStripes44]

...And one more thing, if Vick is overrated, then A-Rod must just plain be a fraud.

[EarnedStripes44]

that's right, he has 7 years in the league, but he is only 27. He has (a conservative estimate) of at least 3 to 4 seasons left before he starts getting worn. Remember, his arm is not as bad as people make it out to be. Kurt Warner, the greatest accuracy passer of all time, his career completion percentage was arount 65% and he played till he was 35. And with regards to winning, Vick was 7th of the starting quaterbacks at the start of last season. Again that number is not great, but definitely GOOD. Last season was by far his worst season. That same tired, worn out accuracy excuse they apply to all quaterbacks that run. McNabb, Vince Young, Charlie Frye....etc, etc, etc. I feel like I am talking in circles. For you, we can just talk sports, not politics. But I reaffirm my position that dog fighting is disgusting, and for all practical purposes Vick is done because of said allegations.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

That same tired, worn out accuracy excuse they apply to all quaterbacks that run.

Yeah, That whole Accuracy thing in a Quarterback is Over-rated.....who cares if they can't hit the target.

[EarnedStripes44]

I do, however, appreciate the pseudo-intellectual reference. For that, I am eternally grateful.

[justplugit]

Sadest part of Vick ,et al ,is the affect they have as heros to our kids.
Very few if any to look upto.

It seems the only thing important in todays sports is excellence in stats,
and nothing to do with character or setting a good example.

[Shake N' Bake]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Sadest part of Vick ,et al ,is the affect they have as heros to our kids.
Very few if any to look upto.

It seems the only thing important in todays sports is excellence in stats,
and nothing to do with character or setting a good example.

Character and setting a good example to our kids means something to me. Perhaps that is what I was trying to say to EarnedStripes44.

[fishbones]

So, he is 7th in winning percentage. He must be a great QB, then. By that logic, Philip Rivers and Rex Grossman were the best QB's in the league last year. Peyton Manning is definitely not as good as Grossman, huh? All right, now I have to actually look up some stats to show how bad Vick really is as a QB. I am not going to list the numbers, but they are all available on any NFL related website, so you cannot say it's a bunch of BS. The following all have better career QB stats (completion percentage and passer rating) than your homeboy Vick.
T. Brady, D. Brees, M. Brunnell, M. Bulger, J. Delhomme, B. Farvre, J. Garcia, T. Green, M. Hasselbeck, B. Johnson, B. Leftwich, P. Manning, D. McNabb, S. McNair, C. Palmer, C. Pennington, T. Rattay, P. Rivers, B. Rothlisberger, K. Warner, and last but not least..........the immortal Seneca Wallace. As you can see, some of these guys are not even starters anymore. I also left off guys like Romo who have better #'s, but have not played a full season yet. Now, I challenge you to come up with some of your handpicked stats to refute these numbers. Just because you have an unnatural love for an athlete, doesn't make him a great player. You can say that I am not a knowledgeable sports fan like you, but I am certain that I prove that Vick is a crappy QB. Case closed.

[Shake N' Bake]

To EarnedStripes44:
Don't tell me that you think Vick should go on playing FB?
That his bad idea's that led to crimes should not be looked at by "Real Sports fans". Just let the guy pay the fines, even go to jail, but when he comes out he can have his job as 7th best QB to play the game back?
Why do you stick up for Pro Sports Loosers?
Why do you care about what records they broke in sports when they are the scum of even being a human being?
To give you an example of the type of Real Sports Fan I am...I wouldn't walk across the street to meet OJ Simpson, now this guy was found "innocent". Do I want to see him do well? No. Do I want his autograph? No, I wouldn't even take a signed jersy.
Vick can meet OJ in the All Pro Hall of Shame.
Another thing, Start another thread on Politics. We will agree more over there...not that it matters here.

[EarnedStripes44]

Remember, were talking about current starters at the opening of last season. The Falcons were terrible last season. Brett Favre is damn near twice Vicks age, Steve McNair is on his way out. Half the guys you named have a career in some cases a decade longer than Vicks. None of the players can rush for yds like Vick, no one except Steve Young. You named veterans, VETERANS, Vicks career will be cut in half and at no point did I say he was a veteran, dangerous yes, but not a veteran. Drew Brees is one of the best QB's in the league (I think Vick was top 10 starting quaterbacks last season given what he had to work with). Mike Vick had a higher passer rating last season than Ben Rothlisburger, Brad Johnson and even Rex Grossman. Vick was ranked 20th in QB rating. That's just passing. If rushing was included, it would be a significant boost, but I respect the idea that quaterback should throw.

Vick is a GOOD player.
Rolemodel, nope
Should he play professional football, that's not up to me? If the allegations prove true, then he should be out of there, he should'nt play under indictment. But if he is exonerated, shame on everyone....especially the media.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

Remember, were talking about current starters at the opening of last season. The Falcons were terrible last season. Brett Favre is damn near twice Vicks age, Steve McNair is on his way out. Half the guys you named have a career in some cases a decade longer than Vicks. None of the players can rush for yds like Vick, no one except Steve Young. You named veterans, VETERANS, Vicks career will be cut in half and at no point did I say he was a veteran, dangerous yes, but not a veteran. Drew Brees is one of the best QB's in the league (I think Vick was top 10 starting quaterbacks last season given what he had to work with). Mike Vick had a higher passer rating last season than Ben Rothlisburger, Brad Johnson and even Rex Grossman. Vick was ranked 20th in QB rating. That's just passing. If rushing was included, it would be a significant boost, but I respect the idea that quaterback should throw.

Vick is a GOOD player.
Rolemodel, nope
Should he play professional football, that's not up to me? If the allegations prove true, then he should be out of there, he should'nt play under indictment. But if he is exonerated, shame on everyone....especially the media.

Now you're changing things again. You use stats from Vick's career when it makes him look good, but you use stats from last year when I bring up career stats of other notable players. You kept bringing up winning percentage, but when I brought up Rex Grossmans winning percentage being better than Vick's, You say that Vick had a better passer rating. Get your argument straight. You are making more of a fool of yourself with each post. Vick's passer rating has been poor for his entire career. QB's are judged on passer rating because they are supposed to pass. Running backs are supposed to run the ball. Being a mobile QB is not the same as being a running QB. Vick runs because he is not a good QB. He is not good at reading and breaking down defenses, and he is lousy at checking down to 2nd and 3rd options. He does not stay in the pocket and doesn't give his O-line a chance to block for him because he breaks off plays at the first sign of a pass rush. Bottom line is that if you are judging him as an NFL quarterback, he is closer to the bottom than the top of the rankings. I'm sure you are very intelligent, but you are not covering yourself in glory trying to make an argument that Vick is even a "good" quarterback. But, I know you won't let facts get in the way of your argument

[EarnedStripes44]

I could go on and on about his rushing, but you guys don't need to be reminded of that.

[EarnedStripes44]

And, I'm sorry, I did'nt know it was more important that players be patron saints rather than athletes.

[EarnedStripes44]

Vick is also the only quaterback to throw for 250 yds in conjunction with 100 yds rushing

[EarnedStripes44]

This post is for those of you, who think upstanding citizenship are more important than capability....
In June 2006, Vick, along with his brother Marcus Vick and mother Brenda Vick Boddie, established The Vick Foundation, a nonprofit organization that supports at-risk youth and the after school programs that serve them in the Metro Atlanta and Hampton Roads areas. The announcement of the organization came just before the start of the foundation’s first fundraiser, the Michael Vick Golf Classic. The inaugural event was held at the prestigious Kingsmill Golf Course in James City County near Williamsburg, Virginia in partnership with The Virginia Tech Alumni Association Tidewater Chapter, and netted more than $80,000 for charity

After the Virginia Tech massacre in April 2007, Vick teamed up with the United Way to donate $10,000 to assist families affected by the tragedy.[55] Vick explained, "When tragic things like this happen, families have enough to deal with, and if I can help in some small way, that's the least I can do." The Vick Foundation is collecting donations from local communities in both Atlanta and Virginia that will be placed in the United In Caring Fund for Victims of the Virginia Tech Tragedy and the special fund at the United Way of Montgomery, Radford and Floyd counties, which serves the Virginia Tech area. Vick's foundation said the money will be used to provide help with funeral expenses, transportation for family members and other support services.

On June 22, 2007, a charity golf tournament featuring Vick, intended in part to raise scholarships in memory of Virginia Tech's shooting victims, was rescheduled for September.[58] The tournament at Kingsmill Resort & Spa had been set to begin on June 29, and a reason for the change was not announced. The tournament is the latest in a series of Virginia appearances either canceled or delayed since Vick's name surfaced in a dog fighting investigation

What a shame, now that he fights dogs, they won't even let him give back to the community...

[EarnedStripes44]

Vick is a spokesperson for the Boys & Girls Club of Metro Atlanta and the Empty Stocking Fund and gives credit to the Boys & Girls Club in his hometown for helping him grow as a youth and provides a monetary donation through a player performance pledge to the local chapter for every touchdown pass. Vick also invited more than 100 kids from the Boys & Girls club locally to the team’s facility after a Saturday practice for a punt, pass and kick competition, as well as a flag football game. He purchased tickets for the kids to attend a Falcons game the next day.

As a part of ESPN.com's "Jocks to GI's", he had a GI e-mail pen pal overseas during the war with Iraq that he communicated with in the spring of 2003. He and USAF Staff Sgt. Angela Geist from Lawrenceville, Georgia, shared emails and life experiences.
Named to Sports Illustrated's "101 Most Influential Minorities In Sports" in May of 2003 at #77 and was chosen to be the EA Sports cover athlete and spokesman for (John) Madden NFL 2004.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

Vick is a spokesperson for the Boys & Girls Club of Metro Atlanta and the Empty Stocking Fund and gives credit to the Boys & Girls Club in his hometown for helping him grow as a youth and provides a monetary donation through a player performance pledge to the local chapter for every touchdown pass. .

The fact that he accepted this role as a Spokesperson for B&G Clubs means he also accepted the responsibilty of being a role model for the Youth.....and at that he failed miserably. You don't put your face on an organization like that and behave the way he has.

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

After the Virginia Tech massacre in April 2007, Vick teamed up with the United Way to donate $10,000 to assist families affected by the tragedy.

Big Whooped-di-do.......he made that on one Dog Fight

[EarnedStripes44]

Madden doesnt think he so bad

[EarnedStripes44]

You guys better come stronger...

[EarnedStripes44]

He doesnt not have 2nd and 3rd options. Rex Grossman has killer receivers, there is no doubt about that. Last season was Vick's worse season without a doubt. We can talk about the other seasons if you prefer? Yes, your right Vick runs to overcompensate for his lack of accuracy, but he is more accurate than nearly a third of all QB's in the league. He also runs because he is exceptionally good at it.

Now with regards to facts, they speak for themselves. I've posted them throughout the thread. For you to say Vick is a marginal QB, including the fact that he runs like an ostrich, just holds no water whatsoever. I've said this four or five times and no one has countered it. Until the recent troubles, Vick has only be in the league all of 6 years. He is only 27. Incredible potential flushed down the drain. I will concede that Michael Vick is a GOOD quaterback, he is amazingly athletic. His arm is a solid C, but overall,he is GOOD, he is a solid B. I would not just write off a QB who can throw 90 yards and scramble for that same amount. Read the facts, man. There are plenty of players who started out rough, but ended up making history. Be objective.

[EarnedStripes44]

I never said Vick was overrated and I never said he was underrated, I believe you did....I said he was dangerous, both on the field and to the pit bulls.

[EarnedStripes44]

I also have some mild criticisms of how QB rating is calibrated

It does'nt take into account how sacks.
Rushing yards have no bearing whatsover on the numbers.
should be measured along the lines of yards per play not yards per attempt.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

I also have some mild criticisms of how QB rating is calibrated

Maybe using a "revised" QB ranking Vick may rise from mediocore to good. But as it stands he continues to be in the lower percentile of NFL QB performance.

[EarnedStripes44]

and i'm going to remind you that Vick holds the NCAA freshmen record for passing efficiency. So the potential for growth is clearly there.

[EarnedStripes44]

This is what someone else said about QB rating....but I think it applies here in an effort to further thwart the stoning of Vick's efforts as an athlete (not dog owner) by the inflamed passions of the mob.

...is that the formula overemphasizes Completion Percentage. While Completion % in and of itself makes up 25% of the rating's calculation, the use of Yards per Attempt rather than Yards per Completion adds to the weight of Completion %, since incomplete passes are penalized under yds/attempt. Thus, many critics feel that the Passer Rating formula automatically is skewed in favor of quarterbacks who play in a West Coast scheme that favors many high-percentage (but low-yardage) pass plays.
- Vick cannot play the West Coast scheme, its not his style.

The simplest complaint may be that the weighting of each category is, on the whole, arbitrary. There is no evidence to suggest that Completion %, Yards/Attempt, Touchdown %, and Interception % are of equal value (25% each) in terms of an offense's efficiency (or if those stats, in that combination, have any correlation to scoring, or winning, at all). The system also does not account for changing offensive conditions in the NFL over time; for example, when the formula was devised, a score of 66.6 was supposed to represent an average quarterback. And in 1970 , the average passer scored a 65.6, a figure almost perfectly in line with the rating-creators' vision. But in 1980 , the average was 73.7; in 1992, the average quarterback had a rating of 75.3; and in 2004, a record-setting year for passers, the league's mean passer rating was 82.8. The great Johnny Unitas finished his hall of fame career with only a 78.2 rating. At least part of the reason for the increase in passer ratings is that the NFL has consistently made rule changes favoring the offense. Thus, scores must be interpreted with care when doing cross-era analysis.

[fishbones]

No one has countered the fact that Vick is a great runner because......well, he is a great runner. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say he is a great athlete. But, I will stick to the argument that he is not even a good QB. He is closer to the bottom than the top in stats that measure how good a QB is. And no, being able to run is not one of them. Would you agree that being good would mean that you have to be in the top half of QB's in the league? If so, Vick is in the bottom half of the league in all meaningful QB stats. He was #24 in completions last year, #20 in passer rating, #31 in completion percentage, #22 in yards per attempt, 16th in INT's, and was the 6th most sacked QB in the league. The only stat where he ranked in the top half of QB's was TD passes thrown where he was ranked #10.

[EarnedStripes44]

NOW FOR THE BEST PART:

No matter what system is used, a large part of a quarterback's success is related to the talent around him. A poorly thrown pass can be overcome with a great catch, and the perfect pass can be dropped. The offensive line also has quite a lot to do with the quarterback's success.