Herd immunity is not a strategy, it is a biological fact

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

He did lead by example. He showed that, under his leadership, we are on the path to beating this thing. And if the Dems gain control, they will "inherit" what has been done to put us on that path. And they will claim the success as theirs and brand his administration as a total failure.

And if they don't eff up the economy by going back to their high tax high regulation Progressive model, they will have a record recovery and a period of American renaissance--until they reinstate their Progressive agenda.

you know the standards you set for progressives.. How about using the same standards on Trump .. that was you might not sound like a cult member to late "American renaissance" plz explain

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

You have a different definition of beating this virus, but that’s to be expected, so when we reach 300,000 dead with still no comprehensive government plan or consistent messaging in place, will that be “winning”?

There is no evidence that Biden, or Hillary, or any Dem, would have done better. If anything, Biden and the Dems and the WHO and the Press and China said he overreacted and was xenophobic with his travel bans--which strongly indicates that they all would not have acted as early as Trump. And the "messaging" of the Dems early on was to be carefree and mingle in crowds with no mention of masks.

And Trump sped up the process for producing and getting vaccines and cures ready. There's no evidence that the Dems would have done that. If anything, the Dem "messaging" was that Trump was putting us in danger by trying to speed up the process. The normal process would have taken years. To this day they still try to put doubt in any vaccine that is produced under this administration. Which doesn't seem to me to be concerned with the well being of our people or with defeating the virus.

So I see no evidence that any Dem would have done better. What they have done very, very well is "message" all manner of doubt and disbelief in anything Trump says or does--starting before he even became President. And they did anything from a constant barrage of negative and even lying press, to unproven and unfounded accusations of treason, a stupid show trial impeachment, claiming without proof that he mishandled the pandemic by not starting early enough, saying that he has no national plan when he obviously has had a plan but is limited by his constitutional powers and therefor letting the states do what they are constitutionally given the power to do, and a relentless portrayal of orange man bad to really really bad.

To me, the Dem "message" that Trump is totally responsible exposes the authoritarian nature of their Progressive ideal--an all powerful central government in charge of every aspect of our lives. And a dictatorial executive administration that assumes all the governmental powers of the nation.

It is obvious, as with those anti-Trumpers on this forum, that their mission was not to join in on suggestions or help in anything other than bringing Trump down. They have gone way beyond the usual obstruction of an opposing administration.

I said we are on "the path" to beating it, not that it has been beaten. And Trump has laid down a foundation for winning as proven by his speedy recovery with the aid of one of the medications resulting from his operation warp speed. . . if the Dems don't mess it up.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

There is no evidence that Biden, or Hillary, or any Dem, would have done better. If anything, Biden and the Dems and the WHO and the Press and China said he overreacted and was xenophobic with his travel bans--which strongly indicates that they all would not have acted as early as Trump. And the "messaging" of the Dems early on was to be carefree and mingle in crowds with no mention of masks.

And Trump sped up the process for producing and getting vaccines and cures ready. There's no evidence that the Dems would have done that. If anything, the Dem "messaging" was that Trump was putting us in danger by trying to speed up the process. The normal process would have taken years. To this day they still try to put doubt in any vaccine that is produced under this administration. Which doesn't seem to me to be concerned with the well being of our people or with defeating the virus.

So I see no evidence that any Dem would have done better. What they have done very, very well is "message" all manner of doubt and disbelief in anything Trump says or does--starting before he even became President. And they did anything from a constant barrage of negative and even lying press, to unproven and unfounded accusations of treason, a stupid show trial impeachment, claiming without proof that he mishandled the pandemic by not starting early enough, saying that he has no national plan when he obviously has had a plan but is limited by his constitutional powers and therefor letting the states do what they are constitutionally given the power to do, and a relentless portrayal of orange man bad to really really bad.

To me, the Dem "message" that Trump is totally responsible exposes the authoritarian nature of their Progressive ideal--an all powerful central government in charge of every aspect of our lives. And a dictatorial executive administration that assumes all the governmental powers of the nation.

It is obvious, as with those anti-Trumpers on this forum, that their mission was not to join in on suggestions or help in anything other than bringing Trump down. They have gone way beyond the usual obstruction of an opposing administration.

I said we are on "the path" to beating it, not that it has been beaten. And Trump has laid down a foundation for winning as proven by his speedy recovery with the aid of one of the medications resulting from his operation warp speed. . . if the Dems don't mess it up.

To use your typical argument might have means nada and by the way they aren’t running the show and it’s not going to be a top ten shoe, going down as the worst EVER!

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

To use your typical argument might have means nada and by the way they aren’t running the show and it’s not going to be a top ten shoe, going down as the worst EVER!

WTH are you talking about?

[Got Stripers]

Thought you’d catch the meaning (no sleep last night your slipping) since your argument on anyone’s post using rhetoric like looks like, or might be, or maybe no evidence in your case just doesn’t hold water. To try to argue what a different administration may or may not have done in your own words is ludicrous and again Biden isn’t running this show and it’s a looser.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Thought you’d catch the meaning (no sleep last night your slipping) since your argument on anyone’s post using rhetoric like looks like, or might be, or maybe no evidence in your case just doesn’t hold water. To try to argue what a different administration may or may not have done in your own words is ludicrous and again Biden isn’t running this show and it’s a looser.

I didn't say there might be evidence nor that there might not be evidence. I definitively said there is no evidence. I even specifically pointed out in their own words and actions that Biden and the Dems would not have acted earlier than Trump since they criticized him for doing so. Are you claiming that the Dems were just being hypocritical? Your accusation that Trump didn't act soon enough is based on opinion with no fact or evidence. You didn't say that he might have acted too late. You definitively said he did. I gave you factual information that puts the lie to any argument that the Dems would have acted earlier. Those facts are not a "they might have happened." It's a "they did happen."

Your making the initial accusation that Trump didn't act soon enough. The burden of proof is on you. I am making a rebuttal saying that the Dems would not have acted sooner, with facts to support it. You are the one making a definitive accusation with no facts to support it. Your accusation is speculation.

And I stated the fact that Trump sped up the process of finding vaccines. And I pointed out the fact that the Dems criticized him for doing so. These are not "might have, looks like, maybe" speculations. They are "did happen" facts. In there own words the Dems were indicating that they would not have sped up the process . . . unless they were being hypocritical liars.

And since you keep insisting that Trump's messaging is destructive and inconsistent, I pointed out how the Dem's messaging was and is inconsistent and damaging, and yes, in my opinion, far more damaging and politically motivated than Trump's.

[Got Stripers]

And yet with all you stay Trump did we are rapidly approaching 300,000 dead and initial actions by Trump were a bandaid on a hemorrhaging problem a partial ban followed by terrible mixed messaging even to this day, have resulted in a failed economy and attempt at handling this health crisis. To suggest you know how Biden or another administration would handle this by comments they made without the intel this current administration had is in your own words pure speculation. Keep it up DeBarr eventually someone might buy into your BS argument but it won’t be me.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

And yet with all you stay Trump did we are rapidly approaching 300,000 dead and initial actions by Trump were a bandaid on a hemorrhaging problem a partial ban followed by terrible mixed messaging even to this day, have resulted in a failed economy and attempt at handling this health crisis. To suggest you know how Biden or another administration would handle this by comments they made without the intel this current administration had is in your own words pure speculation. Keep it up DeBarr eventually someone might buy into your BS argument but it won’t be me.

I used the Democrat's own words. I made an argument. You don't have an argument. You just say stuff.

[Got Stripers]

The White House has repeatedly meddled with decisions by career professionals at the FDA, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other science-based agencies. Many of the nation’s leading scientists, including some of the top doctors in the administration, are deeply disturbed by the collision of politics and science and bemoan its effects on public health.

“I’ve never seen anything that closely resembles this. It’s like a pressure cooker,” Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said in an interview.

You keep defending and I will keep chuckling and raising the flag.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

The White House has repeatedly meddled with decisions by career professionals at the FDA, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other science-based agencies. Many of the nation’s leading scientists, including some of the top doctors in the administration, are deeply disturbed by the collision of politics and science and bemoan its effects on public health.

“I’ve never seen anything that closely resembles this. It’s like a pressure cooker,” Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said in an interview.

You keep defending and I will keep chuckling and raising the flag.

Yeah, well the FDA and CDC have f*cked up many times. They are run by fallible humans not perfectly programmed robots. And many top doctors and scientists disagree with some of your favorite top docotors and scientists. And Fauci said that Trump did whatever his team asked for.

And your little BS flag ain't about chit.

[Pete F.]

NEW: Erin Banco spoke to Fauci about the Trump campaign:

"By doing this against my will, they are in effect harassing me. Since campaign ads are about getting votes, their harassment of me might have the opposite effect of turning some voters off."
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

NEW: Erin Banco spoke to Fauci about the Trump campaign:

"By doing this against my will, they are in effect harassing me. Since campaign ads are about getting votes, their harassment of me might have the opposite effect of turning some voters off."
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That might be true.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

For every complex problem, there is a simple elegant and incorrect solution.
Congratulations on finding it

Washington Examiner:

The World Health Organization’s special envoy on COVID-19 urged world leaders this week to stop “using lockdowns as your primary control method.”


“We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Dr. David Nabarro said to The Spectator’s Andrew Neil. “The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”


Nabarro went on to point out several of the negative consequences lockdowns have caused across the world, including devastating tourism industries and increased hunger and poverty.


"Just look at what’s happened to the tourism industry in the Caribbean, for example, or in the Pacific because people aren’t taking their holidays,” he said. “Look what’s happened to smallholder farmers all over the world. ... Look what’s happening to poverty levels. It seems that we may well have a doubling of world poverty by next year. We may well have at least a doubling of child malnutrition.”

Earlier this week, thousands of medical health experts signed their names to a petition calling for the end of coronavirus lockdowns, citing the “irreparable damage” they’ve caused.

"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists, we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” read the petition, known as the Great Barrington Declaration. "Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health."

In the United States, lockdowns have been tied to increased thoughts of suicide from children, a surge in drug overdoses, an uptick in domestic violence, and a study conducted in May concluded that stress and anxiety from lockdowns could destroy seven times the years of life that lockdowns potentially save.

For a more in depth study of the effects of stress from the lockdowns: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...wns-save-study

[Got Stripers]

Hey guess what everyone has been saying for a long time earlier action by governments, mask Wearing being essential, social distancing and limiting the size of gatherings would have saved lives. Basically everything Trump has refused to do all along.

[Pete F.]

The World Health Organization’s special envoy on COVID-19 Dr. David Nabarro in an interview stated lockdowns are not helpful as the primary means to control COVID-19. He advocated a middle path which means holding the virus at bay whilst keeping economy and social life going. It would require "high level of organization by governments and remarkable degree of engagement of people" with robust infectious disease control services or public health. He emphasized combining of several measures such as "physical distancing , face protection, hygiene, isolating the ill and protecting the vulnerable" as an effective method.

And then you have Covita's rally in a state with a remarkable disengagement of people and a a positivity rate that's 14% higher than 2 weeks ago, so if you don't do a, b, c, d and e you might end up needing to do a lockdown.

But he's immune

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Hey guess what everyone has been saying for a long time earlier action by governments, mask Wearing being essential, social distancing and limiting the size of gatherings would have saved lives. Basically everything a Trump has refused to do all along.

Trump has worn masks in certain situations. He has social distanced in certain situations. He has no authority to make people do it. That is a state responsibility. And he certainly hasn't said that we shouldn't follow mask and distancing guidelines,

When asked whether he would wear a mask, Trump told Fox Business in a White House interview, "Oh, I would. I have. I mean people have seen me wearing one. If I'm in a group of people where we're not 10 feet away -- but usually I'm not in that position and everyone's tested."

Under interstate commerce power:
July 3 (UPI) -- The Trump administration has issued guidance to airports and airlines to mandate the use of face coverings at all times as well as employ social distancing measures and minimize in-person interactions to prevent further spread of the coronavirus.

And Trump was right to call for a loosening up of lockdowns and freeing up the economy--which he was criticized for.

[Pete F.]

Covita in July: "We have one of the lowest, maybe the lowest, mortality rate anywhere in the world

New study: "The proportion of Americans dying from coronavirus infections is the highest in the developed world"

Quite a way to make America great again

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

The World Health Organization’s special envoy on COVID-19 Dr. David Nabarro in an interview stated lockdowns are not helpful as the primary means to control COVID-19. He advocated a middle path which means holding the virus at bay whilst keeping economy and social life going. It would require "high level of organization by governments and remarkable degree of engagement of people" with robust infectious disease control services or public health. He emphasized combining of several measures such as "physical distancing , face protection, hygiene, isolating the ill and protecting the vulnerable" as an effective method.

And then you have Covita's rally in a state with a remarkable disengagement of people and a a positivity rate that's 14% higher than 2 weeks ago, so if you don't do a, b, c, d and e you might end up needing to do a lockdown.

But he's immune

Oh, so now you don't think I found an incorrect solution?

And it is highly hypocritical to praise large outdoor "protests" in which there is no social distancing and many are not wearing masks, and to allow large indoor various studio audiences such as Progressive SNL shows where there is no social distancing or many without face masks.

Trump's rallies are outdoors. And there are some mask wearers. What's good for the goose is apparently not necessarily, for you, good for the gander.

And BTW, I wish he would ask all those coming to his rallies to wear masks. As the speaker, he would have to remove a mask. And it is outdoors, and he is several feet removed from the audience. But he leaves it up to them, as is their constitutional right. If they are breaking a state mandate, then the state should prosecute them.

And he was right to push for opening up the society and economy.

And I am optimistic that his warp speed agenda will soon produce the medical mitigations to help us reach an eventual herd immunity. And I like his economic agenda way better than the economy choking Dem agenda. And I like what he has done with foreign economic treaties. And that he has not got us into a bunch of stupid never ending wars.

Overall, for me, especially considering the fate of our Republic and its Constitution and our unalienable rights if the Progressive agenda is not checked, a Republican electoral victory is the better choice, by far.

[Pete F.]

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And I am optimistic that his warp speed agenda will soon produce the medical mitigations to help us reach an eventual herd immunity.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Covita in July: "We have one of the lowest, maybe the lowest, mortality rate anywhere in the world

New study: "The proportion of Americans dying from coronavirus infections is the highest in the developed world"

Quite a way to make America great again

So you use a July quote, nice. It's a worldwide pandemic and it is resurging just about everywhere,

Oct. 11 (UPI) -- "Nations are reporting record daily coronavirus cases, mainly in Europe after largely controlling the pandemic, with the world adding around 1 million new infections every three days.

On Saturday, a total of 355,909 new cases were reported worldwide, slightly less than the record 358,354 the day before and the fourth day in a row with more than 300,000. One-third of those new cases were in Europe.

On Sunday, Europe added 88,488 cases with 242,197 globally so far Sunday."

And when you take the economic and health factors (including long term) caused by the lockdowns, the U.S. does not compare badly as the purely covid count stats suggest. We'll get over this and be better off in the long run than most others--if we keep the Trump economic policies in place and don't revert to the Progressive tax and regulation policies and don't go back to self-destructive trade policies.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

So you use a July quote, nice. It's a worldwide pandemic and it is resurging just about everywhere,

Oct. 11 (UPI) -- "Nations are reporting record daily coronavirus cases, mainly in Europe after largely controlling the pandemic, with the world adding around 1 million new infections every three days.

On Saturday, a total of 355,909 new cases were reported worldwide, slightly less than the record 358,354 the day before and the fourth day in a row with more than 300,000. One-third of those new cases were in Europe.

On Sunday, Europe added 88,488 cases with 242,197 globally so far Sunday."

And when you take the economic and health factors (including long term) caused by the lockdowns, the U.S. does not compare badly as the purely covid count stats suggest. We'll get over this and be better off in the long run than most others--if we keep the Trump economic policies in place and don't revert to the Progressive tax and regulation policies and don't go back to self-destructive trade policies.

Your quote has nothing to do with what I posted about deaths, demonstrating just as much empathy as Covita

New study: "The proportion of Americans dying from coronavirus infections is the highest in the developed world"

And don't worry with Covita's rallies in the most virulent parts of the US, he will make sure we are #1

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Your quote has nothing to do with what I posted about deaths, demonstrating just as much empathy as Covita

New study: "The proportion of Americans dying from coronavirus infections is the highest in the developed world"

And don't worry with Covita's rallies in the most virulent parts of the US, he will make sure we are #1

My post was putting your post in a less pessimistic perspective. You want to point out every selective negative data you can get your brain on.

Here's this dose of optimism from the NYT's Science and Health Reporter:

A reporter for The New York Times wrote Monday he was surprised to find America’s recovery from the coronavirus pandemic appears to be unfolding faster than experts initially anticipated.


In “A Dose of Optimism, as the Pandemic Rages On,” science and health reporter Donald G. McNeil Jr. argued the coronavirus death toll in the U.S., standing at around 250,000, is far below the initial 2.2 million Americans initially projected to die by mid-October.

“Since January, when I began covering the pandemic, I have been a consistently gloomy Cassandra, reporting on the catastrophe that experts saw coming: that the virus would go pandemic, that Americans were likely to die in large numbers, the national lockdown would last well beyond Easter and even past summer. No miracle cure was on the horizon; the record for developing a vaccine was four years,” McNeil wrote. “Events have moved faster than I thought possible. I have become cautiously optimistic. Experts are saying, with genuine confidence, that the pandemic in the United States will be over far sooner than they expected, possibly by the middle of next year.”

Citing a March 16 White House press briefing on the virus, McNeil recalled President Trump and the White House Coronavirus Task Force presenting their “15 Days to Slow the Spread” recommendations. They showed a chart from London’s Imperial College, which used a “sinuous blue line” to demonstrate what Dr. Deborah Birx called a “the blue mountain of deaths.”

McNeil argued the coronavirus death toll in the U.S. did not reach the 2.2 million marker because Americans’ behavior and attitudes toward combatting the virus largely evolved over the past few months, as more people accept social distancing measures as the norm. More people also have accepted the practice of wearing masks, especially since President Trump contracted the virus.

“In the day-to-day fights over reopening schools or bars, it is easy to forget that there was a time when the idea of canceling large public gatherings — the St. Patrick’s Day Parade, the N.C.A.A.’s March Madness basketball tournament — did not seem remotely necessary,” McNeil wrote. “That there was a time when leading health officials said that only sick people and hospital workers needed to wear masks.”

TRUMP GETTING SUPPORT FROM THOSE MOST AFFECTED BY 'ASYMMETRICAL' COVID LOCKDOWNS: HANSON


Pharmaceutical treatments for the disease have expanded, as antiviral drug remdesivir and steroids such as dexamethasone have proven effective in treating the virus, and those hospitalized are less likely to die from the disease.

Still, McNeil pointed out that infection rates were spiking in some states, and experts have been racing to develop vaccines and monoclonal antibodies – dubbed the medical “cavalry” to defeat the virus once and for all. Recent projections by Dr. Anthony Fauci estimated some 400,000 Americans could die from the coronavirus before the pandemic is anticipated to end by mid-2021.

To avoid the pandemic from relapsing, he urged Americans to follow Fauci’s advice to “hunker down.”

He also wrote that vaccine skepticism must fade, and that Congress must act to make the vaccine available around the world, as well as helping Americans recover economically from the virus.


I'm not sure what more "hunkering down" we need to do. No doubt you want Trump to stop his rallies. As you like to say--we'll see.

[detbuch]

From an NBC news article Oct. 8 2020 regarding masks at Trump's campaign rallies:

"'We take strong precautions for campaign events. Every attendee has their temperature checked, masks are provided and their use is encouraged, and there is plenty of hand sanitizer' said Courtney Parella, a spokesperson for the Trump campaign, when asked about what safety measures were being taken in light of the recent Covid-19 outbreak among White House and campaign aides."

I watched a bit of his rally in Pennsylvania today. Everyone in the grandstand behind him that fit into the camera frame had a mask on. Although masks are provided they are not required, and I didn't see any pictures of the huge crowd in front of and below his podium, so I don't know how many of them were wearing masks.

[Pete F.]

There’s a billboard in Des Moines announcing Covita’s
COVID Superspreader Event
They’ll remember where they got it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

There’s a billboard in Des Moines announcing Covita’s
COVID Superspreader Event
They’ll remember where they got it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

They've probably never heard of Covita.

[Pete F.]

Trump is about to hold a pandemic rally with no social distancing and very few masks in Des Moines, Iowa.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[The Dad Fisherman]

I think they are referring to it as a Protest, so corona virus has no power there.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

Trump’s strategy of ignoring the pandemic so that cases surge in battleground states in late October seems to be working out.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Trump’s strategy of ignoring the pandemic so that cases surge in battleground states in late October seems to be working out.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

This is either a truly idiotic comment, or clever propagandistic mixture of words.