Detriot

[spence]

Sorry, on the road and can't type a lot on the ipad.

But what if you don't perceive stuff as free?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Sorry, on the road and can't type a lot on the ipad.

But what if you don't perceive stuff as free?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It looks like you get your hair cut for free.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Sorry, on the road and can't type a lot on the ipad.

But what if you don't perceive stuff as free?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It means you have half a brain. It used to be said, nothing is free
except the air you breathe, but now someone has to pay for the government
and it's regulations to keep it clean.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Sorry, on the road and can't type a lot on the ipad.

But what if you don't perceive stuff as free?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It's not the stuff that's free. It's the transfer of the stuff from someone who has earned it or produced it to someone who doesn't give something of value in return. When the transfer is forced, confiscated from one and given to another who doesn't return equal value or any value to the person from whom the stuff was taken, the rational perception of the receiver would be that he GOT it for free, got it without paying or working for it. But the receiver of the confiscated gift would not rationally "perceive" the gift, itself, as a "free" commodity, one which was not paid for or earned by the one from whom it was taken. He who received the transferred gift would only want it if it had some exchange value. Stuff that is intrinsically "free," stuff which has no exchange value because it is "freely" available, such as the air that justplugit mentioned, is stuff that would be "perceived" as "free."

By the way, it seems that you are deflecting away from the discussion with this tidbit. So much has been proffered, in response to your first question, which you haven't answered, and you move on to this typically nebulous question which derails the argument into an insignificant sidetrack.

[scottw]

yes, free stuff ...pencils given away to patrons of a convention or toasters for opening a checking account is a far cry from the dependence and government handouts that jpt was referencing.....the state and those invested in the expansion of it spend a considerable amount of time trying to convince as many Americans(legal and illegal) as possible that they are entitled and deserving of these handouts and transfers....you have to remember that swollen dependency programs are their best indication of the effectiveness of their policies........ if they don't "perceive" stuff as "free"...it's because wordsmiths like Spence have been telling them in many ways for the last 50 years that it is, in fact, something that they are deserving of and indefinitely entitled to just though the very nature of their being or perceived need, sins of the past and on and on..., it's what makes America great...right???, ...and that those who would withhold, take it away or refuse to pay their fair share are the enemy....if you read the Bible, this is the language of Satan of the Bible...."who told you right is not wrong and up is not down"...." if you simply do as I say, I will give you everything"....sewing the seeds of hatred and discontent all along the way....it's not at all the natural order of things...humanity

many Americans, who I believe, base on conversations that I've had, and who have fully supported these programs and their authors for years, not because Ponzi schemes make much sense but because when they look in the mirror they see a better person for having supported these things, are now understanding to one degree or another that it's not at all compassion but rather, the perpetual growth of an administrative state that gorges on freedom and liberty....funny to hear them blame it on those who didn't do enough to stop it rather that those who did all that they could, with their help and votes ...to create it...

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by scottw

many Americans, who I believe, base on conversations that I've had, and who have fully supported these programs and their authors for years, not because Ponzi schemes make much sense but because when they look in the mirror they see a better person for having supported these things, are now understanding to one degree or another that it's not at all compassion but rather, the perpetual growth of an administrative state that gorges on freedom and liberty....funny to hear them blame it on those who didn't do enough to stop it rather that those who did all that they could, with their help and votes ...to create it...

Starting with FDR and followed by Johnson with his "Great Society", these programs have continued to go on for selfish vote getting reasons. While there may have been some altruistic reasons for starting them to help people get back on their feet, they have turned it into a self defeating disaster.

They have created a culture that has done away with self reliance, the feeling of self worth and the ambition to succeed. There is no obligation whatsoever for the recipient of these programs. It has become, "give a man a fish every day of his life."
There is no incentive for people to get out of these programs, because they are programed to give just enough to create a lazy life without any feeling of needing to work.
There are many people who truly need a specific program to help get them back on their feet, but this has become cadre blanch for every Tom, #^&#^&#^&#^& and Harry and they are milking it for all it's worth, in the end cheating themselves and the tax payer. The only winners are the Politicians who exploit all of us for the sake of a vote.