Can you imagine a worse reason to start a civil war?

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You say here he's clueless. others here say he has the cunning of a mafia don to deliver such an ominous, veiled threat to Ukraine.

Which is it? Is he Don Corleone, or Fredo? You guys want him to be both, he can't be both.

You really with a straight face can say you are confident Trump has a wealth of political knowledge, especially when it comes to past treaties and agreements, I’d suggest you’d be lying if you tried. I never would suggest he is actually cunning enough to pull this madness together as some diabolical plot, he just flys by the seat of his pants, is raw no filter BS non stop. Why do you think the very best people he had to begin with are long gone?
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You say here he's clueless. others here say he has the cunning of a mafia don to deliver such an ominous, veiled threat to Ukraine.

Which is it? Is he Don Corleone, or Fredo? You guys want him to be both, he can't be both.

they are just screaming loons...mad about everything...there's not much thinking involved

as bad a trump can be at times, he's still no where near as loathsome as the democrat cast of characters nipping his heels soooo....

Kavanaugh all over again...this is going to be fun!


"The whistleblower who filed a complaint against President Trump that now forms the center of an impeachment inquiry against him is a registered Democrat, according to a report from CNN."

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Spin it however you like, he was asking for help digging up dirt on his 2020 opponent, not buying into your rational. So was his request China do the same dirty work legit too, you guys crack me up, I think some of you got hit in the head while circling the wagons.
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And the 3 democrat senators also asked Ukraine to investigate political adversaries. Those two things can both b acceptable, or they can both be unethical. If you say one is Ok and one is not, then this discussion is political rather than principled.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And the 3 democrat senators also asked Ukraine to investigate political adversaries. .

Ukraine was the democrats little play land for dirty dealing

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

Ukraine was the democrats little play land for dirty dealing

Reported tody that Hunter may have pocketed multiple millions. Nothing to see there, because getting kicked out of the army for snorting cocaine, obviously prepares you to help run a Ukramian energy conglomerate. And just a coincidence that his dad was (1) VP and (2) Obama's point man on Ukraine.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Reported tody that Hunter may have pocketed multiple millions. Nothing to see there, because getting kicked out of the army for snorting cocaine, obviously prepares you to help run a Ukramian energy conglomerate. And just a coincidence that his dad was (1) VP and (2) Obama's point man on Ukraine.

What did he do wrong Jim?
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

What are Trump’s kids currently doing? You think Dad’s position and influence help Ivanka’s recent Chinese trademarks?
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You're one of the few Progressive leaning guys on this forum for whom I have some basic respect when it comes to politics. So, if you believe that the Chinese gvt. is trying to help the Trumps in any way, that is a hopeful sign that the Chinese may actually want to come to some mutually beneficial trade agreement with Trump . . .

Nah . . . I don't think Xi Jinping wants to give Trump political victories. As long as Trump is having trouble getting our government bureaucracy solidly behind his efforts, as long as the establishment powers here are against Trump, Xi would prefer to wait for Trump to be ousted in the next election or be impeached. Then trade negotiations and tariffs will go away and the previous status quo that enabled china to become an economic power at our expense--wealthy enough to sucker the needy third world to become dependent on China through his Belt and Road Initiative. And so become the dominant world power.

On the other hand, if this country and its political parties supported Trump, reassuring his re-election, then China might find it too debilitating to continue the tariff war with Trump. And some temporary kind of more equitable reciprocity might be achieved. Until the Dems got control back.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

OMG that’s rich, do you really think Trump even is aware those treaties exist, the man is clueless and doesn’t listen to a single advisor who might know. Even on the very and I repeat very remote possibility he was aware, it’s a hey wink, wink, nod, nod, I have a pressing investigation that really has never been resolved haha, spin away.

You seem to be under the impression that you've said something of substance here. Your opinion about what Trump thinks or knows or is remotely aware of has no substantial importance in this matter. All you've done here is evade the fact that what Trump requested was absolutely legitimate, and replaced that legitimacy with your sarcastic and uninformed opinion. And that is all you could do, in order to maintain some fictitious level of credibility for your previous ignorant comments and opinions.

You not only proclaim that Trump is totally clueless, but must think that the Secretary of State, Trump's lawyers, the State Dept., all Trump advisors, are also clueless. It is their business to know something as basic as to what is legal to do when asking for foreign assistance on ANY matter. These treaties are not some dusty old files hidden in some remote never looked at file. They are paid attention to on a continuing basis when any political or legal matter between countries must be addressed.

When the media sources that you, or the public in general, doesn't tell you what you don't know, you inherently assume there is nothing to know. However, those who expand the variety of media sources are more likely to be informed about things than those who are stuck on their one-sided sources which would rather you didn't know everything you need to know to fully understand an issue. This issue of treaties that allow what Trump asked is probably not discussed by the sources that you get your info from because they would rather that you didn't know and so keep you stuck on the notion that it is illegal or unconstitutional to ask foreign powers to "dig up dirt" on their opponents. That is the preferred level of discussion that gives some appearance of a reason for impeachment.

However, other more honest media have informed those of us who listen to them about the treaties and a great deal of other things that cast a whole different light on the issue.

So it is not that Trump is clueless. It is that you are. Not through any fault of your own, except that your sources are not helping you out.

Your claim that Trump "doesn’t listen to a single advisor who might know" is unsubstantiated nonsense. He has always surrounded himself with "experts" even in his business ventures. He sometimes disagrees with some of them, but he hears them all out. Other sources would have helped you to know some things about Trump that you don't, but your sources would rather that you believe he is all the various boogymen that they've planted in your head.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

You seem to be under the impression that you've said something of substance here. Your opinion about what Trump thinks or knows or is remotely aware of has no substantial importance in this matter. All you've done here is evade the fact that what Trump requested was absolutely legitimate, and replaced that legitimacy with your sarcastic and uninformed opinion. And that is all you could do, in order to maintain some fictitious level of credibility for your previous ignorant comments and opinions.

You not only proclaim that Trump is totally clueless, but must think that the Secretary of State, Trump's lawyers, the State Dept., all Trump advisors, are also clueless. It is their business to know something as basic as to what is legal to do when asking for foreign assistance on ANY matter. These treaties are not some dusty old files hidden in some remote never looked at file. They are paid attention to on a continuing basis when any political or legal matter between countries must be addressed.

When the media sources that you, or the public in general, doesn't tell you what you don't know, you inherently assume there is nothing to know. However, those who expand the variety of media sources are more likely to be informed about things than those who are stuck on their one-sided sources which would rather you didn't know everything you need to know to fully understand an issue. This issue of treaties that allow what Trump asked is probably not discussed by the sources that you get your info from because they would rather that you didn't know and so keep you stuck on the notion that it is illegal or unconstitutional to ask foreign powers to "dig up dirt" on their opponents. That is the preferred level of discussion that gives some appearance of a reason for impeachment.

However, other more honest media have informed those of us who listen to them about the treaties and a great deal of other things that cast a whole different light on the issue.

So it is not that Trump is clueless. It is that you are. Not through any fault of your own, except that your sources are not helping you out.

Your claim that Trump "doesn’t listen to a single advisor who might know" is unsubstantiated nonsense. He has always surrounded himself with "experts" even in his business ventures. He sometimes disagrees with some of them, but he hears them all out. Other sources would have helped you to know some things about Trump that you don't, but your sources would rather that you believe he is all the various boogymen that they've planted in your head.

When you’re a Stable Genius you don’t have to worry about that stuff and those guys don’t know how it really works
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[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

You seem to be under the impression that you've said something of substance here. Your opinion about what Trump thinks or knows or is remotely aware of has no substantial importance in this matter. All you've done here is evade the fact that what Trump requested was absolutely legitimate, and replaced that legitimacy with your sarcastic and uninformed opinion. And that is all you could do, in order to maintain some fictitious level of credibility for your previous ignorant comments and opinions.

You not only proclaim that Trump is totally clueless, but must think that the Secretary of State, Trump's lawyers, the State Dept., all Trump advisors, are also clueless. It is their business to know something as basic as to what is legal to do when asking for foreign assistance on ANY matter. These treaties are not some dusty old files hidden in some remote never looked at file. They are paid attention to on a continuing basis when any political or legal matter between countries must be addressed.

When the media sources that you, or the public in general, doesn't tell you what you don't know, you inherently assume there is nothing to know. However, those who expand the variety of media sources are more likely to be informed about things than those who are stuck on their one-sided sources which would rather you didn't know everything you need to know to fully understand an issue. This issue of treaties that allow what Trump asked is probably not discussed by the sources that you get your info from because they would rather that you didn't know and so keep you stuck on the notion that it is illegal or unconstitutional to ask foreign powers to "dig up dirt" on their opponents. That is the preferred level of discussion that gives some appearance of a reason for impeachment.

However, other more honest media have informed those of us who listen to them about the treaties and a great deal of other things that cast a whole different light on the issue.

So it is not that Trump is clueless. It is that you are. Not through any fault of your own, except that your sources are not helping you out.

Your claim that Trump "doesn’t listen to a single advisor who might know" is unsubstantiated nonsense. He has always surrounded himself with "experts" even in his business ventures. He sometimes disagrees with some of them, but he hears them all out. Other sources would have helped you to know some things about Trump that you don't, but your sources would rather that you believe he is all the various boogymen that they've planted in your head.

Your claim it’s a “fact” his request was legal and legit I believe is as wrong as you and the GOP spinning this as a nothing burger. The man has proven he has no issues past, present or future in enlisting foreign powers to interfere in our democracy and elections for personal gain. The “fact” is that is exactly why the founding fathers gave congress a means to remove a president who is abusing his power.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Your claim it’s a “fact” his request was legal and legit I believe is as wrong as you and the GOP spinning this as a nothing burger. The man has proven he has no issues past, present or future in enlisting foreign powers to interfere in our democracy and elections for personal gain. The “fact” is that is exactly why the founding fathers gave congress a means to remove a president who is abusing his power.
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No one has to prove Trumps request was legal. The democrats have to prove it wasn't legal.

"The man has proven he has no issues past, present or future in enlisting foreign powers to interfere in our democracy and elections for personal gain"

I agree he's done that. My question is, when did that become unethical? Hilary wasn't using her office to get donations to her foundation? Obama didn't do that when he asked the Russians to postpone missile talks (talk about national security!) until after his re election? The Senate democrats didn't do that when they asked Ukraine to investigate Manafort and Trump?

Or can you just say out loud what we all know, that's it's only unethical when Trump does it?

I don't think what Trump did was "nothing". But I think it was nothing much more, than what they all do. Once again, we're going to hold him to a different standard, because he's the most vulgar person by far to ever hold that office.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

he's the most vulgar person by far to ever hold that office.

I don't know...I heard LBJ was pretty bad

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

I don't know...I heard LBJ was pretty bad

True, but LBJ didn't have Twitter so it wasn't common knowledge.

The democrats liked his vulgarity when they assumed it would ensure a Hilary victory.

Suck it up and win the next election. Don't undermine the democracy just because they had no one at all, waiting to take over for Hilary as the viable candidate. God almighty what a freak show. I don't think Warren has a prayer. but I also didn't think Trump had a prayer, so what do I know...

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

We're going to hold him to a different standard, because he's the most vulgar person by far to ever hold that office.

We can agree on that one, but Obama delaying talks due to it being more productive for both parties after an election, is a far cry from Trump asking for help getting elected; which by the way is illegal. If Hilary won and was pulling this same crap, I'd back the republicans going after her for betraying her oath of office as well. The president CAN NOT seek foreign help to interfer or benefit, what is it about that which is not crystal clear to the GOP. I suspect while they remain silent, with only a few stating this is troubling, behind closed doors they are very concerned.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

We The president CAN NOT seek foreign help to interfer or benefit, what is it about that which is not crystal clear to the GOP. I suspect while they remain silent, with only a few stating this is troubling, behind closed doors they are very concerned.

(1) show me where it says that a POTUS can't ask a foreign power for any favor or assistance which might benefit him politically.

(2) is the senate allowed to do that? Because 3 senate democrats asked Ukraine to investigate Manafort and Trump. Why was that OK?

What if Trump honestly, genuinely feels Biden did something seriously wrong in Ukraine? He can't ask them to investigate, because Biden is a political adversary? So anyone who is running against a sitting POTUS, has blanket immunity in other countries to do whatever they want?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Obama delaying talks due to it being more productive for both parties after an election, is a far cry from Trump asking for help getting elected; .

If you listen to what Obama said, it's reasonable to infer that he was worried that what he and the Russians had in mind, might have hurt his chances of getting re elected, so he asked them to wait until after his last election. Because once he was no longer answerable to us, he's have "more flexibility" to go along with what the Russians wanted to do.

It's not exactly the same as what Trump did. But it's not a stretch, to say that Obama asked a foreign power to delay missile talks because it would help him get elected.

You really think they don't all do this? As Detbuch said, if Trump gets a great trade deal with China, that will help him get re elected. So is he not allowed to pursue that?

I don't think that investigating Biden, when there's that much evidence of corruption, is "interfering" with the election. Knowing more facts about what took place, improves our ability to make an informed vote, it doesn't interfere with it.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

The “fact” is that is exactly why the founding fathers gave congress a means to remove a president who is abusing his power.

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yeah, I don't think they could have possibly anticipated the lunatics currently on the democrat side of congress wielding such means

[Pete F.]

Asking a notoriously totalitarian regime that's in the middle of a mass incarceration of religious and ethnic minorities to "investigate" your political rival?

Very presidential, very conservative, so patriotic.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Asking a notoriously totalitarian regime that's in the middle of a mass incarceration of religious and ethnic minorities to "investigate" your political rival?

Very presidential, very conservative, so patriotic.
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three senate democrats did the same exact thing, and you didn’t whine about it. which necessarily means that your outrage when trump did it, is selective and politically motivated, which necessarily means it’s also fake.

you’re embarrassing yourself. post some more heavily edited articles with everything deleted that helps trumps case.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

you’re embarrassing yourself.

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peto is determined

[Pete F.]

They must have been talking about ordering lunch and everyone does that

Taylor: Are we now saying that security assistance and WH meeting are conditioned on investigations?
Sondland: Call me
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[Pete F.]

Text messages between US diplomats and a senior Ukrainian aide released by the House Intelligence Committee show how a potential Ukrainian investigation into the 2016 election was linked to a desired meeting between Ukrainian President and President Trump
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Text messages between US diplomats and a senior Ukrainian aide released by the House Intelligence Committee show how a potential Ukrainian investigation into the 2016 election was linked to a desired meeting between Ukrainian President and President Trump
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You lost a lot of credibility when posting what Taylor said, but not the rebuttal.

[Pete F.]

Remember when private text messages between two FBI employees, publicly released devoid of context, became a full-blown scandal? Will be interesting to see if their partisan critics now call for nuance and context in interpreting the newly-released Ukraine scandal texts.
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[Sea Dangles]

Nothing burger
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[Got Stripers]

How about it’s a federal crime to seek and accept foreign help?
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

How about it’s a federal crime to seek and accept foreign help?
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I see.

So when the Hilary campaign paid big money for Brits and Russians to make up dirt about Carter Page, and then the Obama Justice Department specifically used that crap to invade his privacy, that was......???

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I see.

So when the Hilary campaign paid big money for Brits and Russians to make up dirt about Carter Page, and then the Obama Justice Department specifically used that crap to invade his privacy, that was......???

Whataboutism again, come on your party had it's chance and if there was a similar wrong doing, well again; to bad you guys dropped the ball. NOTHING any past president or candidate compares to the lengths this clown will go to gain personal wealth or an advantage in the upcoming election, you know that to be true.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Whataboutism again, come on your party had it's chance and if there was a similar wrong doing, well again; to bad you guys dropped the ball. NOTHING any past president or candidate compares to the lengths this clown will go to gain personal wealth or an advantage in the upcoming election, you know that to be true.

GS:!its a crime to ask foreigners for help and receive it

Jim: what about when hilary and obama did it?

GS: that’s whataboutism.

so i can never challenge your notion that trump committed a crime, by pointing to others who got away with similar actions?

interesting way to avoid having to defend yourself.
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[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

GS:!its a crime to ask foreigners for help and receive it

Jim: what about when hilary and obama did it?

GS: that’s whataboutism.

so i can never challenge your notion that trump committed a crime, by pointing to others who got away with similar actions?

interesting way to avoid having to defend yourself.
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When you run out of lies you claim Whataboutism.
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