assault rifles

[RIROCKHOUND]

We can agree on this one to a T.
why did the AZ guy need the extended magazines for his Glocks?
why did CO shooter need the drum mag (I don't care if it jammed, he still had it)

Because people 'need' them?

As far as the 2nd ammendment, it was written at a time when we had single shot muskets... do you think they would support the right to own fully-auto machine guns? I dunno....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

We can agree on this one to a T.
why did the AZ guy need the extended magazines for his Glocks?
why did CO shooter need the drum mag (I don't care if it jammed, he still had it)

Because people 'need' them?

As far as the 2nd ammendment, it was written at a time when we had single shot muskets... do you think they would support the right to own fully-auto machine guns? I dunno....

It's embarassing to me that conservatives, as a group, seem to be on the wrong side of thi sissue. In some cases, they are on the wrong side because they take big $$ from the NRA.

It's difficult to speculate on whether or not these rare mass-killings would be less deadly if it weren't for these weapons. But it seems like common sense to me.

I mean, lots of people get killed in car accidents, but no rational person is suggesting that we outlaw cars. Because collectively, wwe agree that the utility and freedom that the automobile provides, are worth the cost.

However, I don't see a big benefit to society, thanks to the availability of these guns.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It's difficult to speculate on whether or not these rare mass-killings would be less deadly if it weren't for these weapons. But it seems like common sense to me.

Obviously, we can't make bad things not happen, but we can limit the tools used to do these bad things (within reason)

[piemma]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Obviously, we can't make bad things not happen, but we can limit the tools used to do these bad things (within reason)

Whether you own a Glock with a 10 shot mag, as I do on several of my Glocks, or a 40 shot mag, it doesn't make any difference. If the guy with the gun is a nut, then people will die. I can drop a spent mag and insert another full one is 2 seconds. It immaterial how many shots you have.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by piemma

Whether you own a Glock with a 10 shot mag, as I do on several of my Glocks, or a 40 shot mag, it doesn't make any difference. If the guy with the gun is a nut, then people will die. I can drop a spent mag and insert another full one is 2 seconds. It immaterial how many shots you have.

Yes, and banning larger clips does nothing. Any good machinist can make any
size clip in no time.
Banning them will not cut down on crime or terrorism as there will always be ways to obtain anything illegal as long as human nature exists.

[Raider Ronnie]

Talking about gun laws, assault weapons is a waste of time.
Laws don't apply to criminals.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by piemma

Whether you own a Glock with a 10 shot mag, as I do on several of my Glocks, or a 40 shot mag, it doesn't make any difference. If the guy with the gun is a nut, then people will die. I can drop a spent mag and insert another full one is 2 seconds. It immaterial how many shots you have.

Tape mags together with ends facing opposite. Then they can just be pulled and flipped. As crazy as it is, if he didn't have that drum, more people would have died. If he knew guns, he wouldn't have bought the drum. He could have even done a tone of damage with just shotguns. If he couldn't get guns, he may have bombed or nerve gassed the place. The whole problem is complicated.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by zimmy

If he couldn't get guns, he may have bombed or nerve gassed the place. The whole problem is complicated.

Absolutely, there are many ways to kill if a terrorist chooses, for example
Timothy Mc Veigh. Should fertilizer be banned too?

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Absolutely, there are many ways to kill if a terrorist chooses, for example
Timothy Mc Veigh. Should fertilizer be banned too?

Banned no, but plans to regulate the sale were proposed last year.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Raven]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Absolutely, there are many ways to kill if a terrorist chooses, for example
Timothy Mc Veigh. Should fertilizer be banned too?

when i was a driller in the rock quarry i was always impressed
with how small a nitrates charge was needed for the amount of
rock it moved.... on each shot....

so yes, it needs to be regulated enough that anyone buying large quantities better be a farmer....
with ready fields he's spreading them in... and NOT another Timothy

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It's embarassing to me that conservatives, as a group, seem to be on the wrong side of thi sissue. In most cases, they are on the wrong side because they take big $$ from the NRA.

Fixed.

I mean, lots of people get killed in car accidents, but no rational person is suggesting that we outlaw cars. Because collectively, wwe agree that the utility and freedom that the automobile provides, are worth the cost.

I think the difference is that cars are very rarely used as an offensive weapon, if they were you might see more concern. With DUI's for instance the vehicle is really an unintended weapon, but there's a stiff penalty for irresponsibility.

Which brings up the issue of responsibility. People aren't allowed some weapons not just because they don't need them but there's the risk of irresponsible use or care. Hence gun safety requirements or a clean record to own a firearm or permit to carry.

Those with legal access to automatic weapons have usually gone through more intensive police or military training and they have strict rules that govern their use.

Remember back in the 1980's the big argument was that gun control advocates were trying to bad guns that "looked" more dangerous than they really were. I always found this silly because even a semi-auto with the right stock or extended round clip changes the function dramatically.

Guns are certainly fun to shoot, but I'd agree that to own an AR-15 for instance has little value to the individual other than the cool factor. Even if it's not the military version it was still designed to be an offensive weapon.

-spence

[likwid]

Ban them! Quickly! They're scary looking!

Apparently Jim is a closet liberal.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It's a lot harder to kill large numbers of people with a handgun than it is to do it with these weapons. If these guns were banned, it seem sto me that we all become a bit safer, and I don't feel that amounts to a significant loss of freedom.

Virginia Tech Massacre.
Look it up.

[nightfighter]

I like them. Would like to add another to the collection. Might even build a custom I have in mind. I designed a muzzle brake for long guns ten years ago and it has been well received in its reductiion of signature, especially in dusty environments. (I could probably get your weapon operational, Jim..... as long as you did not remove mass from the action...)
That said, I would be for taking them out of the hands of the public, as long as they can assure that they have gotten them all..... only then would I be willing to put myself at a disadvantage.....





Hi Ben......I know you are reading this one......

[Swimmer]

The shooter in the theater massacre would not have entered the property to do what he did if he thought he was going to get shot back at. If one person had been carrying in the theater, and that one persn shot back at the orange haired puke, a lot less people would have been injured and killed. So for all the guns around, how come there was only one person carrying inside the theater in Aurora?

If assault weapons are banned again, the only people who have them will be the government and the criminals. I don't want that to happen. I could have bought a Thompson years ago, # 266 of the first run of them since production ended after WWII. I had no desire. But if I knew what it would have sold for 20 years later I would have joined my co-worker and invested the $800.00 that day.
Wonder what it cost now to empty a 100 round drum of .45 amunition in just a few seconds?
Some people buy fishing equipment and some people buy guns.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

The shooter in the theater massacre would not have entered the property to do what he did if he thought he was going to get shot back at. If one person had been carrying in the theater, and that one persn shot back at the orange haired puke, a lot less people would have been injured and killed. So for all the guns around, how come there was only one person carrying inside the theater in Aurora?

You're assuming a clearly irrational (i.e. bat#^&#^&#^&#^& crazy) person would behave in a rational manner...that's a stretch.

Certainly he intended harm and could have found another way, but you'd hope his means could be limited.

I've read the FBI stats on guns used in legal defense and it sure doesn't appear like it happens very often.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

The shooter in the theater massacre would not have entered the property to do what he did if he thought he was going to get shot back at. If one person had been carrying in the theater, and that one persn shot back at the orange haired puke, a lot less people would have been injured and killed. So for all the guns around, how come there was only one person carrying inside the theater in Aurora?

I'll tell you why... That theater was a "Gun Free Zone". The theater is owned by Cinemark and the corporate view on guns in their theaters is that only police officers should be allowed to carry guns in their theaters (some good that did).
Theatre In Aurora, Colorado, Was A Gun-Free Zone Like Virginia Tech - Investors.com

In AZ, any private business can post signs to create a "Gun Free Zone" restricting the carrying of firearms into their establishment. Any person that violates the businesses' policy can be arrested for trespass.
Questions and Answers: Concealed Weapons & Permits - Arizona Department of Public Safety

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Ban them! Quickly! They're scary looking!

Apparently Jim is a closet liberal.




Virginia Tech Massacre.
Look it up.

"Apparently Jim is a closet liberal."

Nope! But I have often said that I think for myself, I don't blindly follow any one ideology. I also believe, for example, that conservatives (and my church) are wrong on gay marriage.

"Virginia Tech Massacre.
Look it up"

I don't need to look it up, I know all about it. It's because I know about that incident that I said it's harder to kill large numbers of folks with a handgun than with an assault rifle. I didn't say it was impossible to kill many people with a handgun...I said it's easier to do it with an assault rifle. That's what I said, and I cannot believe you disagree with me.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don't need to look it up, I know all about it. It's because I know about that incident that I said it's harder to kill large numbers of folks with a handgun than with an assault rifle. I didn't say it was impossible to kill many people with a handgun...I said it's easier to do it with an assault rifle. That's what I said, and I cannot believe you disagree with me.

Really? harder? VT proved that to be completely and utterly false.

Originally Posted by Swimmer

The shooter in the theater massacre would not have entered the property to do what he did if he thought he was going to get shot back at. If one person had been carrying in the theater, and that one persn shot back at the orange haired puke, a lot less people would have been injured and killed.

This (fantastic comment by someone) was in response to some senator claiming the same bs.


"Another hypocritical comment by a chicken-hawk who ducked Viet Nam by joining the national guard (which didn't have to fight back then). Speaking as a vet who was drafted, when guns start going off the noise and commotion makes it hard even for trained soldiers to think, and even in crack units a large proportion do not fire or do not fire meaningfully. In the dark it is worse. I recall sitting along a bunker line and watching a three way firefight break out, with tracers going between two locations in the paddies and then in and out of a bunker down the line. Turned out all three were on the same side. To think that untrained people packing guns in a surprise attack in a darkened movie theater could accomplish anything other than more slaughter is a total fantasy."

I *am* highly amused that everyone who thinks someone carrying could have reduced/stopped the bloodshed either a: hasn't served or b: hasn't been in a firefight.

Lots of Massoud the tool along with Guns & Ammo bravado being flung around. (I'm sure we'll agree on this point Jim)

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Really? harder? VT proved that to be completely and utterly false.




This (fantastic comment by someone) was in response to some senator claiming the same bs.


"Another hypocritical comment by a chicken-hawk who ducked Viet Nam by joining the national guard (which didn't have to fight back then). Speaking as a vet who was drafted, when guns start going off the noise and commotion makes it hard even for trained soldiers to think, and even in crack units a large proportion do not fire or do not fire meaningfully. In the dark it is worse. I recall sitting along a bunker line and watching a three way firefight break out, with tracers going between two locations in the paddies and then in and out of a bunker down the line. Turned out all three were on the same side. To think that untrained people packing guns in a surprise attack in a darkened movie theater could accomplish anything other than more slaughter is a total fantasy."

I *am* highly amused that everyone who thinks someone carrying could have reduced/stopped the bloodshed either a: hasn't served or b: hasn't been in a firefight.

Lots of Massoud the tool along with Guns & Ammo bravado being flung around. (I'm sure we'll agree on this point Jim)

"Really? harder?"

Yes. Really. Harder.

"VT proved that to be completely and utterly false."

No. VT proved it's possible to kill many people with handguns. It did nothing to refute my claim that it's easier to kill many people with a rifle.

Likwid, how many Americans troops stormed the beaches of Normandy and Iwo Jima with .45 pistols, and how many had rifles? Why do you think that is?

I have never, ever, anywhere, heard anyone deny that rifles provide significant tactical advantages over handguns (unless you are within 18 inches of the person you are fighting). All other things being equal, rifles fire more rounds, and have much longer effective ranges, and the rounds do more damage.

"I *am* highly amused that everyone who thinks someone carrying could have reduced/stopped "

It's not reasonable to assume that the attack could have been prevented altogether. It is absolutely possible that an armed moviegoer or two might have resulted in a lower bodycount. And I've been in a firefight, with smkoe, noise, screaming, confusion. Not everyone is trained like a Marine, but it's certainly possible someone could have stopped this guy before he stopped on his own.

I'm not saying I'd want to see 15 yahoos shooting up the theatre. But if I was in that theater, huddled over my wife, and I had my rosary beads in one pocket and a gun in the other, I'm safer with the gun in my hand, and so is evertyone else in there with me, no?

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by likwid

This (fantastic comment by someone) was in response to some senator claiming the same bs.



I *am* highly amused that everyone who thinks someone carrying could have reduced/stopped the bloodshed either a: hasn't served or b: hasn't been in a firefight.

Lots of Massoud the tool along with Guns & Ammo bravado being flung around. (I'm sure we'll agree on this point Jim)

There is no bravado being flung about by me. Never said I had been in a firefight nor did I allude to being in one. I am curious though how many you have been in LIKWID? I agree completely with JimCT on this.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I also believe, for example, that conservatives (and my church) are wrong on gay marriage.

I hear ya . . .I consider myself a political conservative (Constitutional Originalist) but I condemn theologically based social and cultural conservatives.

As far as I'm concerned, in their beliefs on the extent of government's powers over citizens, dogma governed social/cultural conservatives and "living constitution" leftists have more in common than dogma governed social/cultural conservatives and Originalist conservatives. That many of these dogma governed social/cultural conservatives cloak themselves in the claim that they are Originalists or Strict Constitutionalists disgusts me as much as the misrepresentations of living constitution leftists.

Dogma governed social/cultural conservatives certainly undermine politically conservative originalists with their all-encompassing opposition to abortion / gay rights. Those agendas pollute their constitutional thinking with the, "it's not in the Constitution, so it's not a right" position.

This position is in opposition to the principles of conferred powers and retained rights and the concept that the Bill of Rights is not the exhaustive listing of the citizen's rights and thus, at complete odds with the principles underlying the 9th Amendment. Which is why so many social/cultural conservatives are in lockstep with liberals in dismissing the 9th Amendment as meaningless surplusage.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It's embarassing to me that conservatives, as a group, seem to be on the wrong side of thi sissue. In some cases, they are on the wrong side because they take big $$ from the NRA.

I would be interested in hearing a reasoned, well cited argument precisely laying out what the "wrong side" is and what the "correct side" is.

The appeal that it is all about NRA money is as ridiculous as saying that pro-choice people are in it just to kill babies.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Because people 'need' them?

It makes me sad that we've shifted from a society of "don't do something if it's illegal" to a society of "you're only allowed to do such and such if it's made explicitly illegal".

Also, let's put to rest the extensive amount of ignorance in here.
A fully automatic M16 rifle is an assault weapon.
A semi-automatic AR15 is not an assault weapon.

The gun control fanatics have decided to try and label just about any modern long gun as an assault rifle because the term is scary. Not a single firearm used in the Colorado shootings was an assault weapon or had the capabilities of a full-auto fire mode.


Now, in this thread we have people saying that extended magazines in Glocks are unneeded, the general public should not have access to fully automatic weapons (again, these were not used in the CO shooting), there needs to be more gun control... why? "Because why do people *need* access to these things that cause death?"

Ok... let's look at mortality rates and apply that philosophy:
2008 Gun Deaths in America - About 30.4k (18.2 of which were suicides - people that could have killed themselves another way if guns weren't avail)
http://www.cdc.gov/Injury/wisqars/pd..._US_2008-a.pdf
2000 - 20004 Mortality rate related to tobacco products - Approximately 443,000 deaths per year
CDC - Fact Sheet - Fast Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use
2001 - 2005 Alcohol Related Deaths - Approximately 75,000 per year
CDC - Alcohol-Related Disease Impact (ARDI) - Alcohol

So, we should increase gun control and outlaw those scary "assault weapons" because of how many people die from them and "no one needs access to these guns and there's no purpose to them."

Who needs alcohol?
Who needs tobacco?

Alcohol related deaths are 2.5x that of guns. Take out suicides and alcohol kills 6x as many people in this country as guns. Where's the outrage?

Tobacco related deaths were over 14x as many people killed by guns, 37x as many when you take out suicides. Where's the outrage?

And Jim in CT as a staunch Conservative, these socially liberal views of yours disappoint me:

I agree with you, I'm not big on limiting freedom. But millions and millions of peopl eenjoy beer. Only a very small number of people are the types that enjoy these weapons.

There are 70-80 million adults in this country of 300 million people that own a firearm. I'm willing to bet that there are "millions and millions of people" that enjoy these types of weapons.
Gun Control

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Also, let's put to rest the extensive amount of ignorance in here.
A fully automatic M16 rifle is an assault weapon.
A semi-automatic AR15 is not an assault weapon.

I believe the AR-15 was designed to be a military weapon. It has a detachable magazine so it can be rapidly reloaded. It accomidates many accessories rarely used for hunting and from what I hear is pretty easy to convert to full auto.

You didn't put anything to rest. You did make yourself look pretty silly.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

You didn't put anything to rest. You did make yourself look pretty silly.

-spence

DadF - please note who ratches this stuff up. Likwid and Spence cant help but be insulting.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

DadF - please note who ratches this stuff up. Likwid and Spence cant help but be insulting.

Oops, it's the hall monitor

Are you asserting that the AR 15 is clearly not in fact an assault rifle? let's put this one to rest...there's an excessive amount of ignorance here that needs to be addressed.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Oops, it's the hall monitor

Are you asserting that the AR 15 is clearly not in fact an assault rifle? let's put this one to rest...there's an excessive amount of ignorance here that needs to be addressed.

-spence

just be respectful in discussion, no need to insult or demean people. Im a southerner now, I've let go of my east coast attitude.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

just be respectful in discussion, no need to insult or demean people. Im a southerner now, I've let go of my east coast attitude.

steers & queers.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

just be respectful in discussion, no need to insult or demean people. Im a southerner now, I've let go of my east coast attitude.

You didn't answer my question.

-spence

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by spence

Are you asserting that the AR 15 is clearly not in fact an assault rifle? let's put this one to rest...there's an excessive amount of ignorance here that needs to be addressed.

Uhhhh, yeah that.

Words have meanings.

"Assault Rifle" is the name of a type of arm that does exist and the characteristics that make the gun an "Assault Rifle" are not met by the AR-15 and its clones.

OTOH, "Assault Weapon" is an invented term that was intended to cultivate a response in the general population unfamiliar with the mechanical operation of firearms, specifically the difference between a semi-automatic AR-15 and a fully automatic Assault Rifle like the M-16:

"Assault weapons, just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms are a new topic. Assault weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons --anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun-- can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."

Josh Sugarmann, 1988, founder, Violence Policy Center

If you are going to use an incorrect term please use the one that is less incorrect.